Do Mormons believe that God evolved from a human being? (grace, hell)
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Do Mormon's believe these statements from their own doctrine, that God basically EVOLVED from a human being?
"God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted immortal resurrected man!"
"As man is, God once was: as God is, man may become."
If you want a lot of details on it, you'll have to ask a Mormon. But if I'm remembering correctly, Mormons believe that the mortal life of God the Father was a virtual mirror image of God the Son Jesus Christ. This is actually very Biblical. Time and time and time again, Jesus tells people "I do nothing but what I saw my father do before me." Mormonism is the only religion I know of that even attempts to make sense out of Christ saying things like that.
I will never fail to be amused at how offended and angry fundamentalist Christians get whenever anybody challenges their preconceived notions about God. "If you fail to accept the Trinity, you're going to hell!!!"
The curious thing about this particular Mormon belief: It actually works quite well in relation to what God repeatedly tells us he is. Throughout the Bible, God describes himself as an extradimensional being -- at least fifth or sixth dimension. He tells us that he has no beginning or end. He tells us that he sees all time as one great whole. If he was a mortal man at some point and became God, from a sixth dimensional point of view, the instant that he becomes God he simultaneously always was God. (If this notion hurts your brain, may I be the first to recommend not trying to study extradimensional theory.)
I do enjoy watching Trinitarians fume over things like this.
Do Mormon's believe these statements from their own doctrine, that God basically EVOLVED from a human being?
"God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted immortal resurrected man!"
"As man is, God once was: as God is, man may become."
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, since I've already answered this question numerous times...
We have no official doctrine pertaining to God’s beginnings. Joseph Smith and one other early LDS Church President, Lorenzo Snow, both made comments about a time when God the Father, like His Son Jesus Christ, lived a mortal life. Neither of their comments were ever canonized, however, and you could attend LDS worship services for a lifetime of Sundays (as I have – 65 years’ worth) without ever once hearing a single solitary sermon or lesson on this topic. If there was a time when God the Father walked on another planet such as ours, it would have been before the time described in the Bible as “the beginning.” In other words, it would have been before the clock started ticking, so to speak, prior to the time covered within the pages of the Bible. If that is the case (and I say “if” because this is purely conjecture), then it would not contradict anything the Bible says, because the Bible does not say one word about what was happening before “the beginning,” and we both believe that God did, in fact, exist before He created our universe.
There is one verse in the New Testament (I'm afraid I can't remember where to find it) where we're told that Jesus is doing nothing He had not seen His Father do. This we understand to be a possible reference to God "doing something" prior to "the beginning."
Joseph Smith once preached a funeral sermon in which he taught, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens." Another LDS prophet, Lorenzo Snow, whose well-known couplet ("As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.") is often cited by non-Mormons and Mormons alike when discussing this clearly controverisal topic.
Let's look at the second half of President Snow's couplet: As God is, man may become. This is LDS doctrine. In fact, it's a doctrine with a name: “Eternal Progression.”
The Latter-day Saints are frequently accused of believing that they can, at some point in the future, become "Gods." Understandably, to many who do not fully understand our doctrine, the mere idea is out-and-out heresy. But, let's clear up two big, big misconceptions:
(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.
(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."
Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 speak of the promises God has in store for the most faithful of His children. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.
Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” Another of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, it is entirely logical to assume that He has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity.
Now, let's move on to the first half of President Snow's couplet ("As man is, God once was..."), which more directly ties to your question. This statement, which (due to lack of actual scriptural support) is not doctrinally binding upon the Latter-day Saints, is merely a logical extention of the second half. If we can progress eternally, it would make logical sense that God "became" God over a period of time. Most Christians would insist that this is a direct contradiction of what the Bible teaches. The Bible, however, is only a record of those things which took place after "the beginning." "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth..." Anyone who believes that God existed before He created the heaven and the earth will have a hard time explaining what He was doing before the creation of our universe took place. The Bible quite simply does not address the topic of what was doing before "the beginning," before the clock started ticking, so to speak. Latter-day Saints believe something about what God may have been doing in the trillions of years before He created our universe. It does not contradict anything the Bible has to say about God. It couldn't; it is impossible to contradict something that the Bible does not even mention.
Another point that really should be considered is that if Jesus Christ was "God" -- in the beginning, then God the Father was also "God" -- in the beginning. If Jesus did not lose His divinity by condescending to experience mortality, then God the Father would not have to have done so either. Even though Jesus was a man, He was also God. He didn't need to stop being God in order to become man. He wasn't born as a man and then "evolved" into God at some point after His birth.
To sum it up, God could have been a man without having had to evolve into what He is today -- if, in fact, Smith and Snow were correct in what they said.
As man is,...is found in the book "Articles of Faith" under the section "Evolution".
Actually, the book, "The Articles of Faith" is merely the writings of one LDS leader (James E. Talmage) who never even was the Prophet/President of the Church. It is definitely not part of the LDS canon. In it, he quotes a couple of lines from Lorenzo Snow's little poem to his granddaughter. That is the reference you are obviously referring to.
The other sources you mentioned are canonical. When interpreted correctly, they do not contradict the Bible in any way.
There is one verse in the New Testament (I'm afraid I can't remember where to find it) where we're told that Jesus is doing nothing He had not seen His Father do. This we understand to be a possible reference to God "doing something" prior to "the beginning."
Found one of them.
Quote:
John 5:19-22
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
This passage does kick off a certain amount of theory-crafting by Christians. Some have postulated the theory that God the Father must have had a mortal life on earth in some lost and forgotten age, but for the most part this passage is one of those "Only God knows" ignored passages because it is theologically problematic. If Jesus is seeing the Father do the same things he is doing and is simply copying as he goes, what does that mean exactly? Does that mean that the Father was once mortal? Born to a virgin mother? Worked the very same miracles? If the Father raises or raised the dead to life (and the passage says exactly that) and resurrection through the Father's own resurrection, then wouldn't the Father still have a physical resurrected body? How does that fit if you believe that God the Father is a Spirit? And if God the Father did everything Jesus did, what's the point in Jesus doing it all over again? This is one of those "Pandora's Box" passages -- and the Gospel of John is loaded with similar passages.
Interesting that it is not canon doctrine in the LDS faith. I still find it commendable that any religion even bothers to explain this passage, even if it is in an unofficial capacity. Saying that it all happened "before the beginning" on some other world in some other universe before our universe ever was -- that makes a lot more sense than saying that the Father lived on this earth and everyone forgot all about it.
This passage does kick off a certain amount of theory-crafting by Christians. Some have postulated the theory that God the Father must have had a mortal life on earth in some lost and forgotten age, but for the most part this passage is one of those "Only God knows" ignored passages because it is theologically problematic. If Jesus is seeing the Father do the same things he is doing and is simply copying as he goes, what does that mean exactly? Does that mean that the Father was once mortal? Born to a virgin mother? Worked the very same miracles? If the Father raises or raised the dead to life (and the passage says exactly that) and resurrection through the Father's own resurrection, then wouldn't the Father still have a physical resurrected body? How does that fit if you believe that God the Father is a Spirit? And if God the Father did everything Jesus did, what's the point in Jesus doing it all over again? This is one of those "Pandora's Box" passages -- and the Gospel of John is loaded with similar passages.
Yup, that's the one I was thinking of. Thanks.
Quote:
Interesting that it is not canon doctrine in the LDS faith. I still find it commendable that any religion even bothers to explain this passage, even if it is in an unofficial capacity. Saying that it all happened "before the beginning" on some other world in some other universe before our universe ever was -- that makes a lot more sense than saying that the Father lived on this earth and everyone forgot all about it.
Religious leaders over the ages have tried to explain a lot of those Pandora's Box passages. Most of their comments are dismissed as, "Well, if you say so..." and are then forgotten. Mormon leaders' comments seem to be remembered not only by Mormons but by everyone else. If I could get one point across, though, it is that there is absolutely NO focus in the LDS Church on God's beginnings. I am being 100% honest in saying that this is something we simply don't dwell on. Now with regards to man's potential to become like God, we do acknowledge that as true doctrine, even though it is not even emphasized all that much. We don't go to church and hear sermons on what we need to do to become like God. And I think I'm pretty typical of most Mormons when I say that I don't give this all that much thought in my daily life. I'm just too busy with trying to be a good person here and now to concern myself to any great degree with what I may ultimately be blessed to become a few trillion years from now.
Also, I previously neglected to mention the considerable evidence that the doctrine of eternal progression was taught forquite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of themost well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:
In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him(God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said,“But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”
Whether people choose to accept this doctrine or not, there is absolutely no way that it began to be taught for the first time in 1830 by Joseph Smith.
If you want a lot of details on it, you'll have to ask a Mormon. But if I'm remembering correctly, Mormons believe that the mortal life of God the Father was a virtual mirror image of God the Son Jesus Christ. This is actually very Biblical. Time and time and time again, Jesus tells people "I do nothing but what I saw my father do before me." Mormonism is the only religion I know of that even attempts to make sense out of Christ saying things like that.
I will never fail to be amused at how offended and angry fundamentalist Christians get whenever anybody challenges their preconceived notions about God. "If you fail to accept the Trinity, you're going to hell!!!"
The curious thing about this particular Mormon belief: It actually works quite well in relation to what God repeatedly tells us he is. Throughout the Bible, God describes himself as an extradimensional being -- at least fifth or sixth dimension. He tells us that he has no beginning or end. He tells us that he sees all time as one great whole. If he was a mortal man at some point and became God, from a sixth dimensional point of view, the instant that he becomes God he simultaneously always was God. (If this notion hurts your brain, may I be the first to recommend not trying to study extradimensional theory.)
I do enjoy watching Trinitarians fume over things like this.
That is quite funny , and is at the root of much of the "fear" fundamentalists have of Mormons. How dare you try to expound on the nature of God!! Its a mystery, how dare you....
I have a very good friend who is a convert to the LDS church and it was this thought that put him over the top:
"As man is, God once was: as God is, man may become."
Katzpur is exactly right, this is not a focus of the Church, but there is no apologizing for this, this is a beautiful thing. Seeing the nature of God the father as a father of the spirit, who wants nothing more than for his children to progress and return home and inherit all that the Father hath through Christ. When we have our own children on earth, we learn a little bit about the nature of God.
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, and is at the root of much of the "fear" fundamentalists have of Mormons. How dare you try to expound on the nature of God!! Its a mystery, how dare you....
