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He was raised in a Protestant religion, became engaged to the daughter of a man who was something of a big wheel in Catholic circles (plenty of business connections with the Church) and converted to Catholicism upon marrying my mother.
He attended mass every Sunday, sent his kids to Catholic schools, and via his father in law, became involved in representing a number of Catholic interests as an attorney.
After I drifted over the line into atheism at age 15, we spent many, many hours arguing about the validity of religious faith in general and the Catholic faith in particular. He always defended it.
I always suspected that he was doing this not out of any personal convictions regarding god or Catholicism, but rather as a product of wishing to please my mother and wishing to sustain his business interests. He always denied this but my father seemed far too intelligent a man to me to be the sort who subscribed to religious doctrines.
Finally, about a year before he died, he at last owned up to the fact that he had never really believed. His explanation was that he regarded religion as a good self discipline for people, and he selected Catholicism because they had stricter rules, obligations and practices. Following these dictums imparted discipline.
I was both relieved to learn that he wasn't dumb enough to fall for the mythology, and frustrated that he spent all those years telling me that I was wrong when he actually believed that I was right. As for the discipline explanation, that would be in character with his nature, but I don't really buy the choice of Catholicism for that purpose because it was just too much of a coincidence that the faith which offered that "best self discipline" was by happy coincidence, the faith that pleased my mother and provided him with business income.
I would cap this story with some pathos about regrets that he didn't trust me enough to tell me the truth all along, but I know that wasn't it. Had he come out as an atheist it would have meant severe problems with my mother. He had to put on a show for her even if at the expense of his relation with his children. As a choice, that was a no brainer because it was always apparent that my father never really had much interest in having kids and that he did so only because that was a super high priority for my mother.
---"wasn't dumb enough.... ....." far too intelligent "...
I hate to burst your egoistic bubble, but there are countless number of men who are smarter and more intelligent than your father and do believe !
Well said, MQ. Only those who are NOT intelligent could fail to see the intelligence of theists who post here.
The above is another generalization which would need to be supported with arguments/evidence, but not here.
I have opinions on the issue of the relationship between intelligence and religious belief which if presented here, would take the thread off topic.
If you are interested in this as a topic, you could start a thread on it and I'd probably show up and explain my thinking on these matters. The data from the research projects which have examined the questions is pretty interesting.
The point of writing things like that is to elicit exactly that sort of reaction from a believer. Better to just let it pass than to take the bait.
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Originally Posted by Grandstander
No it was not. No bait of any sort was intended, but thank you for your groundless generalization which was based on your...mind reading abilities?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Well said, MQ. Only those who are NOT intelligent could fail to see the intelligence of theists who post here.
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Originally Posted by Grandstander
The above is another generalization which would need to be supported with arguments/evidence, but not here.
My statement was very specific to those posting here, if you do not see any intelligent theists posting here . . . I question your perspicacity. It is you who seem to want to make generalizations that only require a single observation to refute.
Interesting. Various "stages of spiritual maturity" have been put forth, and M. Scott Peck's version of it begins with "magical thinking" and advances to literalist religion, then doubt with possible forays into agnosticism or atheism, and finally, a return to a more liberal, loosely-held faith. With the possibility to be stuck in any of those phases. By Peck's model, you have advanced to the final stage, and I am stuck in the second-to-last, at least for now.
I cannot really see returning to any form of faith, even loosely-held, as I not only see no utility in it, but see it as baggage and a distraction. What Peck (and IIRC, Ken Wilber) see in their spiritual developmental models as a cul-de-sac of unbelief, I see as an end point. And I see liberal theism as a partial relapse for people who can't adequately deal with the fact of their own mortality and/or bare-metal reality. And the latter remark is no judgment, by the way; unbelief is not for everyone. Unbelief, I once read, has nothing to offer but a great, big beautiful, indifferent universe, and there are times I wish just a little that I could find some form of warm fuzziness to buffer me from it. But I derive actual comfort from seeing things as they are, even when they are a bit subjectively sterile.
You are correct I am at the end. That is why i tease newbie Atheists.
In reality the existence or non-existence of God becomes a moot point, it is not really important. One can enjoy being a catholic, a Mason, or a follower of the force without actual deities. Or we can have fantasies and enjoy our humanity. I do realize that some people are incapable of bliss or fantasy.
Last edited by Julian658; 01-06-2014 at 06:59 PM..
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