Belief as a condition of salvation is an unreasonable demand (church, atheist)

[mordant]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

... the central belief in the existence of God is essentially intrinsic . . . not extrinsic.

What you describe happening to belief as knowledge is increased is the evaporation of confidence in the man-made explanations based on extrinsic factors ...

Those who are swayed extrinsically will then either abandon their belief by becoming atheist . . . or they may become agnostic . . . or they may retain their belief but become non-religious. The outcome does depend almost entirely on the level of intrinsic belief they started with. If their initial position was based entirely on a buy-in to the religious explanations . . . the erosion of confidence in them will almost certainly produce atheism. The other outcomes reflect the different combinations of intrinsic and religion-based belief. That is how I see the dynamic, mordant.

An interesting theory. It resonates. The key question is, can intrinsic beliefs ever be validated or verified and if not, should they be given credence?

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Fortunately, as you said . . . our salvation does not depend on any of it. In my view Christ took care of whatever was needed. I assume in your current view nothing was needed in the first place.

Correct. However, to whatever extent some hypothetical god might have legitimate or at least enforceable claims upon us, I would anticipate that if that god were worth knowing, he would in fact have reconciliatory rather than putative motivations for how he would handle such things.

[Azrael17]

Originally Posted by daylux

Evidence doesn't lead people to a belief in God.

Then why do they believe in their god?

My god revealed herself to me through Revelations. I experience her. Though my personal experience may not be enough for others it is enough for me, it is my evidence.

[Hyker]

Hi Hyker! I have to agree with Mordant. Mortality is not such a bad thing. If I didn't accept my mortality and kept on believing that all will be as it should be during my immortality, I would have accomplished much less during this lifetime especially in regards to relationships

Hello again elyn02 et al.

I am inclined to agree with you an mordant as well, and I suspect that this is a large part of the reason that Christianity needed to develop the doctrine of hell as a place of eternal torment - to frighten people into accepting their message and authority. The threat of such damnation tips the felicific calculus toward obedience in every situation as the "pain" term goes to infinity.

That said, imagine for a moment the following:

1. The Christian god is real.
2. Pastor Vizio is correct in that only a select group are predestined to faith.
3. I am correct in that the "eternal punishment" awaiting the reprobate is in fact an eternal "death" - complete nonexistance.

If you do not believe by god-given faith, you will perish eternally, which is what an atheist would expect in any case. God has given you the gift of this life on earth and has asked nothing in return...even if you are destined to die without salvation he has done a great thing for you. If you have been predestined to faith, you will live eternally with the god you have come to love. God has given you the gift of earthly life and even more.

In any case god has done right by you, excepting that one could argue that some are born into circumstances so tragic that he or she would be better off having not been born at all. These cases, I dare suggest, cannot exist without some contribution from humanity. Even a child born tragically impaired or ill can know a worthwhile life if those around him or her respond with love and charity.

Given this, in no case has god created someone only to have them suffer.

Thanks.

[Kophi]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Actually...that phrase isn't in the Bible.

It's close enough.

The actual verse is Romans 9:22, which says:

"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his
power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath –
prepared for destruction?"

Interestingly enough, one of the commentaries, the Pulpit Commentary,
says "Predestination to salvation is certainly a doctrine of St. Paul, but he
nowhere intimates predestination to reprobation." The funny thing is, if one
isn't predestined to salvation, than it can be logically concluded that they're
being predestined for destruction, unless there's a 3rd option in the bible
somewhere. But in all my days as a Christian (with the exception of
Catholicism and Christian Universalism) there were only two options:
Smoking and Non-Smoking.

The Bible does not say that God predestines anyone to hell. If God does not grant the grace, then they will be punished for their sin.

Again, God not granting a person the grace for salvation is just another way
of saying He's predestining that person to hell. Whether one calls it G# or
A♭, it's the same piano-key.







–

[daylux]

Originally Posted by Shirina

I would have thought that, if there was any universal truth at all to religion, there wouldn't be so much debate about it.

So I go down the only path that doesn't expect you to push your way through intellectual thickets, thorns, and burrs to get to your destination ...

That path says to me that all religions cannot be right but they CAN all be wrong. Only this particular path does not require mental gymnastics to rationalize, it doesn't require me to surrender my reason and forgo the use of my brain, it doesn't require me to believe things on faith, and it doesn't demand that I love and adore a deity that behaves like an absentee father.

Belief itself is an interesting notion. By and large, it is not something you choose to do any more than you choose who to fall in love with. It either happens or it doesn't. Some of us simply aren't hardwired to believe in religion or gods. Moreover, when it comes to religion and salvation, belief is not enough. You have to love these gods with every fiber of your being and put these gods first in your life, even above your own children. That's far more than beleif, that is a mild form of fanaticism.

For those of us like myself who tend to be logical, cerebral, and have very high standards of evidence can never really and truly believe in these deities much less love them and adore them and whatnot. Yep, I've tried, and it never takes hold. Oh, for awhile, while I'm immersed in a group of people inside a church swaying and singing and raising up their hands and crying, it's easy to convince yourself that, just maybe, you're starting to really believe.

Then the service is over and suddenly you begin finding all of the silly and ridiculous things the pastor might have said, the idea that Christian myths are no different than a thousand other myths, why should I believe this bunk, wow - was I ever an idiot for getting caught up in mass hysteria ... and off you go for another unbelieving day without gods in your life.

If you see not only religion but all of humanity from the perspective of an observer, a non-participant, almost like an alien monitoring human behavior from afar, you really begin to realize just how primitive and primal these religious beliefs are.

I never chose to see things in that way, I never chose to disbelieve, I never chose to regard religion as an almost comical set of beliefs. As I've said before - I could no more believe in god than a paralyzed man could get out of his wheelchair and run the Boston Marathon simpy because he wants to.

And if I even believed in a God, I would have to wonder why I was "created" with the brain that I have. Am I not supposed to disbelieve? Then I end up with a paradox. After all, how can I ask a god I don't believe in why he created me to disbelieve in him.

At any rate, I know a lot of Christians want to know what a person like myself would accept as evidence. The most sincere answer I can give is: I don't know, but God would know. If he cared at all about my soul, if he cared at all if I came to his party, he would send me an invitation I would know was from him.

This is a step in the right direction in getting to know God. Pay attention in the coming weeks and don't dismiss things that seem too good to be true as merely coincidence. When God speaks to you it will be deliberate and personal.

[daylux]

Originally Posted by Azrael17

Then why do they believe in their god?

My god revealed herself to me through Revelations. I experience her. Though my personal experience may not be enough for others it is enough for me, it is my evidence.

For me, I was really sad. I decided to read the Bible as a last resort. Then God introduced himself to me personally, and that was my evidence. It took faith first, which was picking up a Bible I didn't believe in.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Hyker

That said, imagine for a moment the following:

1. The Christian god is real.
2. Pastor Vizio is correct in that only a select group are predestined to faith.
3. I am correct in that the "eternal punishment" awaiting the reprobate is in fact an eternal "death" - complete nonexistence.

If you do not believe by god-given faith, you will perish eternally, which is what an atheist would expect in any case. God has given you the gift of this life on earth and has asked nothing in return...even if you are destined to die without salvation he has done a great thing for you. If you have been predestined to faith, you will live eternally with the god you have come to love. God has given you the gift of earthly life and even more.

In any case god has done right by you, excepting that one could argue that some are born into circumstances so tragic that he or she would be better off having not been born at all. These cases, I dare suggest, cannot exist without some contribution from humanity. Even a child born tragically impaired or ill can know a worthwhile life if those around him or her respond with love and charity.

Given this, in no case has god created someone only to have them suffer.

Interesting, Hyker. While I do not believe that the Christian god is real, if I were to grant you your three postulates, your conclusions are plausible. However, I still have grave reservations about declaring, across the board, that everyone's life is some wonderful gift in and of itself. Even a person not "born tragically impaired or ill" can know tremendous tragedy and/or illness in life, as well as tremendous pain from other quarters; and they can certainly be thwarted of their hopes, dreams and aspirations, including (I'd argue, in fact, most often) through little or no fault of their own. This still leaves god culpable in the problem of suffering, IMO.

I wish, too, that I could believe your interpretation of scriptural references to hell, however, the relative minority who believe in oblivion / annihilation / soul sleep is testimony to the intent of most of the Biblical authors with regard to the structure of the afterlife as either ultimate bliss or ultimate suffering for eternity.

[elyn02]

Originally Posted by mordant

Not in terms of life being difficult. Like you, I've learned to accept that life is what it is. The abusiveness comes through what Arq had termed "hellthreat" which is a nice, concise, descriptive term. "Love me or suffer for eternity" is an abusive and manipulative threat no matter how you try to spin it.

I agree.

Originally Posted by mordant

I basically grew weary of all these circuitous explanations for why life is as it is. It is far, far, FAR simpler to just say that life is exactly as one would expect if we lived in an indifferent universe where random stuff occurs. A lifelong quest for "something more" is just the continued expression of personal disappointment that life is never about us. In my opinion.

I grew weary of the "whys" as well which is why I gave it up. I am extremely practical in this regard so I only ask "why" when I know there is an end.

I guess my quest is more about understanding why I choose what I choose. I know there is an end to it somewhere.

Originally Posted by nateswift

So, ONLY predestining SOME for salvation does NOT predestine the rest to the only other choice...... right.

Yeah, I am trying to figure that one out as well.

Originally Posted by Hyker

Hello again elyn02 et al.

I am inclined to agree with you an mordant as well, and I suspect that this is a large part of the reason that Christianity needed to develop the doctrine of hell as a place of eternal torment - to frighten people into accepting their message and authority. The threat of such damnation tips the felicific calculus toward obedience in every situation as the "pain" term goes to infinity.

That said, imagine for a moment the following:

1. The Christian god is real.
2. Pastor Vizio is correct in that only a select group are predestined to faith.
3. I am correct in that the "eternal punishment" awaiting the reprobate is in fact an eternal "death" - complete nonexistance.

If you do not believe by god-given faith, you will perish eternally, which is what an atheist would expect in any case. God has given you the gift of this life on earth and has asked nothing in return...even if you are destined to die without salvation he has done a great thing for you. If you have been predestined to faith, you will live eternally with the god you have come to love. God has given you the gift of earthly life and even more.

In any case god has done right by you, excepting that one could argue that some are born into circumstances so tragic that he or she would be better off having not been born at all. These cases, I dare suggest, cannot exist without some contribution from humanity. Even a child born tragically impaired or ill can know a worthwhile life if those around him or her respond with love and charity.

Given this, in no case has god created someone only to have them suffer.

Thanks.

Are these your beliefs, Hyker? I can accept this.

I am not an atheist but I know that I am not among the chosen if those conditions are true.

[Hyker]

Originally Posted by mordant

I still have grave reservations about declaring, across the board, that everyone's life is some wonderful gift in and of itself. Even a person not "born tragically impaired or ill" can know tremendous tragedy and/or illness in life, as well as tremendous pain from other quarters

Hello again mordant.

That is understandable, but again I would posit that much of that misery is caused by humans rather than god. This limits his culpabity to allowing, as opposed to causing, said suffering. I will spare you the "free will" apologetics that address this. In truth I am not certain that "free will" sufficiently answers the problem, but I never claimed to have everything figured out...

I wish, too, that I could believe your interpretation of scriptural references to hell, however, the relative minority who believe in oblivion / annihilation / soul sleep is testimony to the intent of most of the Biblical authors with regard to the structure of the afterlife as either ultimate bliss or ultimate suffering for eternity.

I would have to disagree with you strongly on this point - I think the bible teaches "annihilation" pretty conclusively. It isn't the fault of the authors that the message has been distorted over the centuries. One need look no further than some of the most quoted passages in the bible:

John 3:16 (NASB, emphasis added) - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 6:22 (NASB, emphasis added) - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who push the idea of a hell of eternal torment are quick to point out that the words "perish" and "death" both come from the same Greek word: "apollumi," which can mean "death," but can also mean "lost" or "ruined." An example of the former would be Luke 15:8-9 (the coin is apollumi) and of the latter would be Matthew 9:17 (the wine skin is apollumi). Some would argue that this allows them to reinterpret "apollumi" as "lost" or "ruined" whenever it suits thier theology, but there is good reason that "apollumi" is rendered as "lost" in Luke 15:8 but as "perish" and "death" in John 3:16 and Romans 6:22 (respectively). I am no expert in Ancient Greek, but the various renderings depend on form, tense and context. So then, if you wish to change "perish" to "lost" in John 3:16, your argument is one of linguistics rather than theology. Yet almost every translation (and every faithful one, I would argue) renders "perish."

These are only two small examples, but the bible is full of them. I have actually done a verse-by-verse analysis if you would like more detail, including looking at "proof-texts" for eternal suffering hell such as those in Revelation 14 and 20.

That said, "annihilationism" is not a spiritual cure-all. Just because god turns out not to be a vindictive tyrant does not necessitate his existence.

Thanks.

[Hyker]

Originally Posted by elyn02

Are these your beliefs, Hyker? I can accept this.

I am not an atheist but I know that I am not among the chosen if those conditions are true.

Hello again elyn02.

For what it's worth, I believe it is what the bible teaches.

Thanks.