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When I look at nature, in particular the animal kingdom, I see natural selection treating life cheaply and with casual indifference. It's not enough that the fittest of each species must live and succeed, but also that others must fail and die. Pain, suffering, loss, fear, hunger... these are the tools that nature uses to shape life.
You saw god in nature?!? Do you see your god in the five major mass extinctions that have taken place, or do you just gloss over that? Your god sure is sadistic!
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
These are valid points and the "red in tooth and claw" aspect of nature posed a significant stumbling block in explaining the existence of God to my intellect. I remain puzzled and troubled by it. But it is my capacity to be troubled by it that provided the clue to the answer. Of course I am in a unique position because I proceed from an absolute certainty that there is a God consciousness that establishes our reality. So failing to explain it was not an option.
The physical interactions and processes are merely transfers of energy from one form to another. It is my consciousness that causes me to identify with the loss of life that is involved and to be saddened by the barbarity of the more helpless and defenseless being exploited by the strong. This places my consciousness at the pinnacle of creation. I am both participant and observer of life. It is that capability that defines our purpose and provides clues to our role in reality. I derived my first clues for an explanation from the Tao. R.L.Wing described it thus,
. . . If reality came about because the Absolute wanted to know itself, then our evolutionary destiny must be to help it get a good look by investigating, observing, and emulating nature.
. . . If we extend the Taoist ideal of a cooperative world-consciousness to universal dimensions, then the universe has but one purpose and evolution moves in one direction: toward the development of a vast network of a nervous system that will bring into existence a conscious mind for the entire universe.
. . . We, as individuals, and even as a world society, are then merely neurons in the growth of what, at the moment, is a very primitive, universal brain. We can see the embedded pattern of this growth reflected, for example, in the evolution of our species --- from the simplest brain stem of the lower life forms to the complex brain-mind of humans.
Since I know that our reality is established by a universal field (consciousness of God IMV) . . . this perspective resonated with me in spite of its otherwise atheist tenor. It became clear to me that the physical aspects of reality are not the important ones. It is what we consciously create that matters. We all need to make an effort to seek more than what this physical life offers. It is the purpose of our consciousness. We need to realize the divine nature of our consciousness and use it wisely.
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Originally Posted by SteelDragon
Even if I was, I couldn't stop the capricious wastefulness of life that is, apparently, your god's will.
I'm hungry for a steak now.
You clearly didn't read my post or you wouldn't still make the claim about waste. Energy transfers are energy transfers . . . no waste is possible.
It's not possible Joint heir with jesus...an old book just don't cut it for some of us...some people just can't have blind faith in something or someone they've never met and who only exists in a book written by man.
Maybe it's got something to do with the many many people who do profess to love Jesus, but then go on to do things that the bible says are wrong, and sinful.
Maybe it's that picking and choosing when and what to embrace and adhere to (from the bible).. something that most christians seem to do... that turns atheists off.
I know a man who gets so upset with his son because the son has a mental illness, and says weird things. He's even said right in front of him that he's not human, that he's lower than a dog. This is on a frequent basis. He says he'll always be crazy. The son is in his 20's, so it's not like child abuse, maybe more like adult abuse. The son does seem to be a handful, BUT, the dad believes he's (dad) going to heaven. He thinks he's a good person.
I know a man who gets so upset with his son because the son has a mental illness, and says weird things. He's even said right in front of him that he's not human, that he's lower than a dog. This is on a frequent basis. He says he'll always be crazy. The son is in his 20's, so it's not like child abuse, maybe more like adult abuse. The son does seem to be a handful, BUT, the dad believes he's (dad) going to heaven. He thinks he's a good person.
When the dad passes he'll end up where most, probably all of us do. But I suspect his route there may be a lengthy one, and, one would hope, fraught with memorable teaching moments along the way.
I trust his son will have a shorter, smoother ride when his time comes.
You clearly didn't read my post or you wouldn't still make the claim about waste. Energy transfers are energy transfers . . . no waste is possible.
Mystic, I enjoy reading your posts for a different view. Admittedly, I'm not fully aware of what you exactly believe in terms of a deity and the whole 'order of the universe' as you see it. Can you point me to a post where you explain your deity 'consciousness with certainty' as you stated?
I'm not (yet) in agreement, but I'm always open to new ideas that aren't veiled magical thinking.
I know a man who gets so upset with his son because the son has a mental illness, and says weird things. He's even said right in front of him that he's not human, that he's lower than a dog. This is on a frequent basis. He says he'll always be crazy. The son is in his 20's, so it's not like child abuse, maybe more like adult abuse. The son does seem to be a handful, BUT, the dad believes he's (dad) going to heaven. He thinks he's a good person.
He is one of those fathers who is under the misapprehension that you can shame someone into a desired behavior -- probably because that's how his father operated -- dispensing praise and (probably far more frequently) "anti-praise" to manipulate him into desired behaviors. And from whence cometh this notion? Yep, from the carrot-and-mostly-stick hellthreat doctrine. Measure up, or else. Love me, or else. Act right, or else. Or else you'll burn in hell, or else you're lower than a dog and will be treated accordingly. I have seen this theme propagate itself even in non-practicing Christians a generation or two away from practiced Christianity.
The other problem for guys like this, is that an insane child, a dead child, a gay child, is a personal failure, because when things go out-of-bounds in Christianity it is never god's fault or just Stuff Happening; it's your fault, in this case, the parent's. And while a child who occasionally gives you lip or doesn't get straight A's may be acceptable or at least concealable, there is no dignity to be salvaged when they are overtly delinquent or crazy or deviant and the desired "story arc" of the family is ruined. So it exposes theism for the ineffectual wallpaper that it is, which ticks everyone off; and it exposes the parent for the failure at role modeling that they are in the theist way of thinking of such things. Children become public relations pawns to be trotted out to show how wonderful the parenting was, or hidden away to conceal how bad it was. A child with a mind of its own must be repressed or disowned rather than mentored and loved anyway.
Okay. Notice that this is why I say that you can't make someone believe as you do.
I agree. It is one of the numerous atheist axioms (or should that be axiae?) that you can't change someone's mind about religion. Only they can do that.
But it is also true that debating with atheists and trying to produce a good argument for religious belief is one of the fastest ways of getting them to change their own minds.
You clearly didn't read my post or you wouldn't still make the claim about waste. Energy transfers are energy transfers . . . no waste is possible.
You are kidding us, right? You know very well that 'wastefulness' is used in respect of inefficient use of resources within a limited field of use and endeavour or interest -to us (I believe meat - eating was the subject). That the 'wasted' material will eventually rejoin the cosmos of particles is as irrelevant as trying to comfort someone whose girlfriend had just been run over by a truck by assuring him that she still lives on as a cloud of subatomic particles.
That was a good intellectual's joke, Mystic...or I surely hope that it was.
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You are kidding us, right? You know very well that 'wastefulness' is used in respect of inefficient use of resources within a limited field of use and endeavour or interest -to us (I believe meat - eating was the subject). That the 'wasted' material will eventually rejoin the cosmos of particles is as irrelevant as trying to comfort someone whose girlfriend had just been run over by a truck by assuring him that she still lives on as a cloud of subatomic particles.
