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I posted a thread earlier today, and someone responded that they needed to see "facts". And so I ask you all, where are the facts for YOUR religion? And PLEASE don't say the Bible because that's about as unreliable source as you can get.
No offense intended, but I think you may be taking the comments from you other thread too personally. Based on my brief experience with the two individuals who responded, they are both atheist/rationalists and have issued the same challenges to many, many Christian posts on these boards. They weren't targeting your belief system specifically except insofar as they challenge theistic/supernatural claims in general. In that sense, for what it's worth, one could say that they treated your ideas in the same way they would treat any well-established religious claims.
Thanks, and good luck to you. I do think there is great value in searching for that something (or nothing) that you can really believe in...
No offense intended, but I think you may be taking the comments from you other thread too personally. Based on my brief experience with the two individuals who responded, they are both atheist/rationalists and have issued the same challenges to many, many Christian posts on these boards. They weren't targeting your belief system specifically except insofar as they challenge theistic/supernatural claims in general. In that sense, for what it's worth, one could say that they treated your ideas in the same way they would treat any well-established religious claims.
Thanks, and good luck to you. I do think there is great value in searching for that something (or nothing) that you can really believe in...
So, I guess I will have to broaden my question then to atheists. What FACTS show their isn't a God? See the issue here. NOBODY knows one way or another, so it is all in what we believe in. That's why a lot of these arguments are so stupid. No one knows, and almost anyone pretending to (unless he spoke to you, which I've only heard of once in my life), is lying.
So, I guess I will have to broaden my question then to atheists. What FACTS show their isn't a God? See the issue here. NOBODY knows one way or another, so it is all in what we believe in. That's why a lot of these arguments are so stupid. No one knows, and almost anyone pretending to (unless he spoke to you, which I've only heard of once in my life), is lying.
Hello again David910.
This type of question has been covered many times on this forum and elsewhere, so I will keep my synopsis brief. You are quite correct in asserting that no one knows - absolutely knows beyond a doubt - the existence or nature of god(s). This essentially leaves one with two choices:
1. Believe by faith in a god, gods and/or theological system that makes sense to you personally. Based on your earlier post, it seems as though this is the road you are on. And while I may not agree with your theology (e.g. reincarnation is not part of my personal belief system), I think (as previously stated) that the search is worthwhile, and I wish you luck in that endeavor.
2. Go with the hard evidence. Atheists are not required to show "proof" that god does NOT exist any more than you must provide "proof" that Zeus, Santa Clause or The Flying Spagetti Monster do not exist. Has anyone searched all of creation for The Flying Spagetti Monster? Of course not, therefore his existance cannot be definitively disproven. Because this is the case, logic and science always place the burden of proof on the affirmative statement. Again, this is not my personal opinion, it is part of the scientific method. If no evidence of a particular phenomena can be found by objective and reproducible observation, it is assumed false.
This type of question has been covered many times on this forum and elsewhere, so I will keep my synopsis brief. You are quite correct in asserting that no one knows - absolutely knows beyond a doubt the existence or nature of god(s). This essentially leaves one with two choices:
1. Believe by faith in a god, gods and/or theological system that makes sense to you personally. Based on your earlier post, it seems as though this is the road you are on, and while I may not agree with your theology (e.g. reincarnation is not part of my personal belief system), I think (as previously stated) that the search is worthwhile, and I wish you luck in that endeavor.
2. Go with the hard evidence. Atheists are not required to show "proof" that god does NOT exist any more than you must provide "proof" that Zeus, Santa Clause or The Flying Spagetti Monster do not exist. Has anyone searched all of creation for The Flying Spagetti Monster? Of course not, therefore, his existance cannot be definitively disproven. Because this is the case, logic and science always place the burden of proof on the affirmative statement. Again, this is not my personal opinion, it is part of the scientific method.
Thanks.
I think you dodging the question. Basically, what you are saying is that there is no proof. We can prove that Santa Clause doesn't exist because of the characteristics given about Santa Claus. We know, by physics, that it would impossible for Santa to get to every Christian house on the planet. We also know that Santa either cannot fit in, due to his heavy size, or does not even have a chimney to get through, so that dispels that part of the theory. We also can reasonable assume that, being a heavy man, his footsteps would be heard by at least one or two homeowners and he would be caught, so that dispels that. We know, by science, that reindeer cannot fly, so that disproves that part of the story, we also know, by discovery, that no workshop or any sort of housing for Santa Claus exists. So, because no one has seen Santa lurking around looking for a house, we can logically make the assertion that Santa doesn't exist.
I can go on for the other ones too, but do you see how we can provide "proof" beyond a reasonable doubt that Santa doesn't exist. We cannot do that, however, for God, as we don't even have a basis for proving such a theory. In fact, by theories such as the String Theory, physicists are starting to realize that there is so much more to the universe than that meets the eye. Could this eventually lead to proof of a God, yes? Is it here yet? No. Is there real evidence proving he/she doesn't exist? No. Could we prove 100 years ago some of the things we know today, does that mean that they don't exist or don't occur?
It's like the old saying, "If a tree falls in a forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Well, we can't really prove it made a sound, but we all sort of know it did. And thus we have ourselves a problem!
I posted a thread earlier today, and someone responded that they needed to see "facts". And so I ask you all, where are the facts for YOUR religion? And PLEASE don't say the Bible because that's about as unreliable source as you can get.
I look forward to hearing your "evidence".
Don't forget the idea of "Suitable Evidence"
that is what you might accept as Suitable Evidence might be very different than some one else.
This is why truth can not be proven with out testable evidence, evidence testable by all people.
Until that is done all beliefs remain beliefs instead of facts whether those beliefs are based in "divine revelations" such as mine or Logic.
David: While I am not an Atheist I will not accept anothers beliefs and essentially convert from my own until that person provides me with "Suitable Evidence" for why I should do so and this evidence should be testable by believers and non-believers and reap the same results by all people.
Religions are usually one of several types:
Creedal being based on doctrines formed from previous peoples such as scriptures and traditions. Those scriptures can some times be acclaimed revelations.
Experimental being based on experiences whether believed to be divine or not and usually associated with a person receiving a personal revelation of some kind.
Look at Christian and Jewish history: Christ comes, some who are dedicated to Tradition said: "Christ is not their Messiah", some who are not that dedicated to Tradition said: "Christ is our Messiah." What happened: Judaism and Christianity now exists. Thou it did not stop there, for some of the new Christians wanted to keep their Traditions while Paul did not, thus a split within the faith happened early on. Paul won of course it's his teachings most of Mainstream Modern Christianity based their doctrines upon.
I think you dodging the question. Basically, what you are saying is that there is no proof. We can prove that Santa Clause doesn't exist because of the characteristics given about Santa Claus. We know, by physics, that it would impossible for Santa to get to every Christian house on the planet. We also know that Santa either cannot fit in, due to his heavy size, or does not even have a chimney to get through, so that dispels that part of the theory. We also can reasonable assume that, being a heavy man, his footsteps would be heard by at least one or two homeowners and he would be caught, so that dispels that. We know, by science, that reindeer cannot fly, so that disproves that part of the story, we also know, by discovery, that no workshop or any sort of housing for Santa Claus exists. So, because no one has seen Santa lurking around looking for a house, we can logically make the assertion that Santa doesn't exist.
Hello again David910.
Everything you said about Santa is scientifically true, but you are ignoring the fact that Santa is magic. Of course you can't see his workshop...it is invisible to all except those who truly believe. Those who are skeptical will see right through the compound. Indeed, Santa's magic is so clever that even were you standing right next to it you would see and hear nothing, and would be gently guided around the structures without even knowing it. First prove to me that this is not the case, then we'll discuss the supersonic sleigh and Santa's ability to dialate time such that a visit occurring inside of a house can take several minutes while only milliseconds elapse outside of the house. Wasn't it Einstein who demonstrated that time is relative?
You see the problem here David910? I can continue to make whatever wild, unverifiable claims that I care to and you cannot disprove them. If you raise an objection, I simply extend the myth to explain them away. You cannot prove that any of my above claims are false, which is why the burden of proof must be on the affirmative statement. I can't provide evidence for any of my claims above, therefore you assume they are untrue.
Quote:
In fact, by theories such as the String Theory, physicists are starting to realize that there is so much more to the universe than that meets the eye. Could this eventually lead to proof of a God, yes? Is it here yet? No. Is there real evidence proving he/she doesn't exist? No. Could we prove 100 years ago some of the things we know today, does that mean that they don't exist or don't occur?
As another poster pointed out in another thread, if some observable evidence of god comes to light, it will at that point become science and no longer a matter of religious faith. Could this happen? Theoretically, yes. But because it has not happened, there is no reason to believe it will. Perhaps you will be abducted by Martians tonight, but I'm guessing you still assume that Martians do not exist.
All of that said, in the end you are free to believe whatever you like. It was never my intention to debate with you, or to "win" some type of argument with you. I was just trying to be helpful by demonstrating some of the reasoning you will encounter as you tackle the subject of theology and god's existence. If you don't want my help, you have but to say so and I will stop posting in your threads.
Everything you said about Santa is scientifically true, but you are ignoring the fact that Santa is magic. Of course you can't see his workshop...it is invisible to all except those who truly believe. Those who are skeptical will see right through the compound. Indeed, Santa's magic is so clever that even were you standing right next to it you would see and hear nothing, and would be gently guided around the structures without even knowing it. First prove to me that this is not the case, then we'll discuss the supersonic sleigh and Santa's ability to dialate time such that a visit occurring inside of a house can take several minutes while only milliseconds elapse outside of the house. Wasn't it Einstein who demonstrated that time is relative?
You see the problem here David910? I can continue to make whatever wild, unverifiable claims that I care to and you cannot disprove them. If you raise an objection, I simply extend the myth to explain them away. You cannot prove that any of my above claims are false, which is why the burden of proof must be on the affirmative statement. I can't provide evidence for any of my claims above, therefore you assume they are untrue.
As another poster pointed out in another thread, if some observable evidence of god comes to light, it will at that point become science and no longer a matter of religious faith. Could this happen? Theoretically, yes. But because it has not happened, there is no reason to believe it will. Perhaps you will be abducted by Martians tonight, but I'm guessing you still assume that Martians do not exist.
All of that said, in the end you are free to believe whatever you like. It was never my intention to debate with you, or to "win" some type of argument with you. I was just trying to be helpful by demonstrating some of the reasoning you will encounter as you tackle the subject of theology and god's existence. If you don't want my help, you have but to say so and I will stop posting in your threads.
Thanks.
Cute post.
Nobody disputes that Santa is a nice story for children. Nor does anyone credit Santa as the source of origins.
It would be helpful if atheists could demonstrate how the universe came to be by chance. I keep asking this question. Here and elsewhere. Atheists can't give a plausible answer. Truth be told their lack of an answer does not prove God, but it sure makes their position a matter of faith. Opinion without evidence is a matter of faith.
Nobody disputes that Santa is a nice story for children. Nor does anyone credit Santa as the source of origins.
It would be helpful if atheists could demonstrate how the universe came to be by chance. I keep asking this question. Here and elsewhere. Atheists can't give a plausible answer. Truth be told their lack of an answer does not prove God, but it sure makes their position a matter of faith. Opinion without evidence is a matter of faith.
You're being disingenuous Mr5150. You, and others of your ilk, have been answered multiple times. And the answer is "We Don't Know", and neither do you. Now, put that to rest once and for all.
David, once you provide the attributes for your God, we can then analyze them to the point of whether or not he/she/it is likely to exist, much as you did with Santa Clause.
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