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Well, so many of your "ilk" politely say "we don't know" and then attack or ridicule those who say we do know. I would hope you are secure in your belief system. The reaction of some who say they don't know suggests they feel threatened by those who profess there is a God.
See here is the deal: the majority of theists DO know. God has revealed Himself to us in one way or another. Of course if we give an example it is, and will be, explained away. Been the case since I started posting on forums and my parents were the same way when I became a theist.
If you guys simply "don't know", then why are you trying to convince those who DO know that they don't really know what they DO know to be true?
By "ilk" I gather you mean atheist?
I think it's the other way around....I think it's those who profess to know God are the ones who "attack or ridicule those who say we don't know"....so you see, really, it goes both ways.
If you `KNOW`like you say...I'd be very glad to hear your "example", and it wouldn't be "explained away"...at all.
I don't think some people are trying to "convince" you that what you believe is not true....I think it's more about them wondering HOW you know that what you know is true....and there's where the example would be of use.
So, I guess I will have to broaden my question then to atheists. What FACTS show their isn't a God? See the issue here. NOBODY knows one way or another, so it is all in what we believe in. That's why a lot of these arguments are so stupid. No one knows, and almost anyone pretending to (unless he spoke to you, which I've only heard of once in my life), is lying.
It's easy to believe in the here and now..reality...it's all around us.
It's the LACK of facts that show there isn't a God.(or will always keep some wondering)...and that's a fact.
Well, so many of your "ilk" politely say "we don't know" and then attack or ridicule those who say we do know. I would hope you are secure in your belief system. The reaction of some who say they don't know suggests they feel threatened by those who profess there is a God.
See here is the deal: the majority of theists DO know. God has revealed Himself to us in one way or another. Of course if we give an example it is, and will be, explained away. Been the case since I started posting on forums and my parents were the same way when I became a theist.
If you guys simply "don't know", then why are you trying to convince those who DO know that they don't really know what they DO know to be true?
Of course we're threatened, when your beliefs spill over into the civil realm, making laws and regulations that are borne in your beliefs. Still, we've provided you an answer, whether you agree with it or not.
Plenty of Christians have been to the north pole, but have they seen Santa's compound? No. If you go look under a Christmas tree, you will see gifts. If we compare the gifts of all of the Christian children with the receipts from various stores that the parents were seen from store video cameras buying at, and since there would be no present unaccounted for, we, once again, can prove that Santa hasn't even visited one house, so either he doesn't exist, or his presence really doesn't matter and we wasted a whole lot of time going through this exercise.
Of course you can't see Santa's compound! Humans CANNOT see it. In fact, we cannot even comprehend it with our limited knowledge and understanding. But we have been told the facts, and we must take it on faith.
Yes, there seem to be plausible alternative explanations for where Santa's gifts come from. But that is just a theory, and there all kinds of holes in it. For one, Santa cannot be caught on video. Receipts are faulty evidence because they can easily be changed or falsified.
Just because you do not believe in Santa and just because you have been swayed by "factual" evidence that he does not exist certainly does not mean he does not. Those who have experienced his gifts KNOW that he is real. Those who choose to reject him do not experience those gifts.
I hope that one day you will come to know Santa and accept his gifts.
... the majority of theists DO know. God has revealed Himself to us in one way or another. Of course if we give an example it is, and will be, explained away. Been the case since I started posting on forums and my parents were the same way when I became a theist.
If you guys simply "don't know", then why are you trying to convince those who DO know that they don't really know what they DO know to be true?
Anyone claiming knowledge on any topic, and who wishes to convince others of this knowledge, must substantiate it by providing a proper basis for that knowledge. Simply asserting that you know something is true, is not providing a proper basis.
Naturally if you simply want to privately believe any random thing, that is your affair. But when you voluntarily enter the marketplace of ideas, you cannot expect or demand that your ideas be accepted and/or respected simply because you believe them to be true.
Naturally if you simply want to privately believe any random thing, that is your affair. But when you voluntarily enter the marketplace of ideas, you cannot expect or demand that your ideas be accepted and/or respected simply because you believe them to be true.
I don't care if you accept my beliefs. I take issue with someone who tells me the correct answer is "I don't know", when in fact I do know. I am quite sure that you don't know and that is fine. I can respect that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
You are demanding an answer that YOU find satisfying. The correct answer, which is true of everyone including you is, "we don't know". If you need the faux certitude peddled by religion, that is fine, but your need for that doesn't justify making things up or adopting what others have made up as explanations.
What faith is needed for is belief without evidence. Unbelief due to lack of evidence is the correct stance and is not faith.
I don't care if you accept my beliefs. I take issue with someone who tells me the correct answer is "I don't know", when in fact I do know. I am quite sure that you don't know and that is fine. I can respect that.
You do not know. You believe -- in fact, you just owned them as "your beliefs". There is a difference between belief and knowledge. If you want folks to credit you with knowing, then you must provide a basis for that knowing.
It is no different than if I told you that I "know for a fact" that we knew each other in a previous life, where we were knight errants under King Arthur. You would not believe that, and you would rightly say that I believe it. You would not be willing to say that I know it, I'd wager.
Now proving my assertion that we knew each other in a past life and proving your assertions about god both suffer from the same problem: they spring inherently from in between our respective ears and noplace else, and therefore are inherently un-substantiatable and, therefore, inherently un-debunkable. The question then becomes, should we default to believing each other, or to disbelieving each other?
You do not know. You believe -- in fact, you just owned them as "your beliefs". There is a difference between belief and knowledge. If you want folks to credit you with knowing, then you must provide a basis for that knowing.
See, there you go again. Next thing, you will be telling me I don't know if I love my wife, because I can't rationally or scientifically prove it.
The problem here is that I have posted my basis for knowing God is real for the last 8 years on forums only to have my posts "explained away" or an alternative possibility given by skeptics. The most bizarre example, as I recall, was when I gave the example of how God gave me a dream of how he was going to get me out of "the job from hell". The dream became reality eight hours later, accurate in every detail. Some suggested that my boss was psychic. Others said I gave off "vibs" that the director picked up on. This from skeptics! Less bizarre responses suggested that I imagined the dream after the fact.
How many dreams to you remember in total detail years later? Me? Just one. So no, I no longer bother giving a basis. I just state the fact to let skeptics know that most theists base their belief system on evidence and not wish thinking.
I am convinced that if the typical atheist spent a night in a haunted house and saw ghosts he or she would busy his or her self trying to figure out a "rational" means to explain away the first hand experience away. Not unlike Scrooge in A Christmas Carol who attributed his ghostly visitation to a piece of bad meat he had consumed.
The problem I have with that is the idea that your god is actively involved in your life through giving you a few hours' worth of notice on a new job. Meanwhile, a child is praying for the molestation to stop, and a mother is praying for enough to keep her child alive another day - both with no active involvement from your god. So I'd rather be skeptical that a god would make those choices than believing it and being extremely disgusted.
The problem I have with that is the idea that your god is actively involved in your life through giving you a few hours' worth of notice on a new job. Meanwhile, a child is praying for the molestation to stop, and a mother is praying for enough to keep her child alive another day - both with no active involvement from your god. So I'd rather be skeptical that a god would make those choices than believing it and being extremely disgusted.
My point made. Thanks! This is why I don't bother any more to provide my basis for knowing.
I have no idea why children starve, beyond human greed, evil people, warfare and ignorance. I do know why children are molested. I work for social services.
Next time you are confronted with a testimony, instead of going into the knee jerk rejection mode, try saying (with a measure of sincerity) well that's interesting. But that seems to never be the case. Always the rejection or the little pat answers found on the internet.
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This is why I don't bother any more to provide my basis for knowing. 
