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I could not let this pass without checking...I was absolutely amazed that almost half of Americans (48%) believe in UFOs, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised since 46% believe in creation. One myth is as credible as another I suppose.
It is well-deserved. My wife and I visited Sedona, Arizona once and were visiting one of their "vortexes" -- er, scenic spots -- when we were approached by someone who claimed they had been abducted by aliens.
Really? I've been to Sedona many times and have never had someone come up and say, "I was abducted by aliens." Drat. I'm always missing the good stuff.
It is well-deserved. My wife and I visited Sedona, Arizona once and were visiting one of their "vortexes" -- er, scenic spots -- when we were approached by someone who claimed they had been abducted by aliens. My wife, a former journalist, could not help herself -- she began interviewing the guy. Other people who were apparently with him came up and shared their experiences as well. They all involved floating out of their cars or wherever they were standing, into the alien ship and having various body orifices violated with probes. Afterwards we were invited to join them in the desert after sunset to watch UFOs (which involved looking at digital artifacts in night vision goggles -- and no, we didn't take them up on it). There was much talk of the vast government conspiracy to keep the reality of UFOs from the populace, etc.
I think you're confusing the "UFO Phenomena" with the "Alien Abduction Phenomena," which I see as two rather different beliefs.
I don't pay much attention to the abduction aspect of UFOs because they're just plain silly. Not to mention that no one has ever photographed or filmed an abduction taking place that wasn't almost instantly shown to be a hoax.
I stay away from cults, groups, and UFO organizations because groupthink, peer pressure, and a mob mentality can destroy one's objectivity when looking at the evidence. Yeah, I know you probably don't think there is any, but I would have to disagree. There is evidence, just not great evidence, and certainly nothing that should make anyone stand up and proclaim, "They are here!"
There are a few diamonds in the rough here and there, however, and that is enough for me to consider that, perhaps, the idea of visitations has some merit. Note, I said the idea of visitations, not the visitations themselves. We're not at that point and perhaps never will be. However, since there is at least a modicum of evidence (which does not include cults, channelers, abductees, and people with starlight scopes) that one shouldn't take the possibility completely off the table.
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Originally Posted by mordant
If aliens visit us, we'll know it. We'll all see the ship.
People on both sides of the argument usually make the forgiveable mistake of seeing aliens as slightly different versions of ourselves - humanity. We like to speculate and guess at how they would behave, what their motivations are, and whether they are good or evil. They make arguments from a very humanocentric viewpoint because, let's face it, humanity is the only confirmed intelligence we know anything about.
The fact is that there is not one single expert on alien psychology, sociology, physiology, morality, motives, and social catalysts. Not a one. How could there be? Thus when anyone says that an alien species "would do this" or "wouldn't do that," well ... that's just a guess based on what a human is likely to do in the same set of circumstances. Now, do I think they flew all of these light years to stick probes up people's backside? No ... I'm reasonably certain that that kind of buffoonery isn't taking place.
But to dismiss the entire phenomena as 100% untrue because of the hoaxers and crackpots does the entire subject a rather grave injustice.
The thing is that the UFO stories have been falling apart recently, and in my neck of the woods, the only Serious UFO magazine has petered out in the hands of a few half -assed bobble- hats who tried to make Adamski look credible and posted a series of palpably faked home - made UFO and alien (obvious to a child as a plastic model propped up against a bush) photies.
One has to be careful, though, about hoaxing and debunking - those who make a living on being a skeptic often find really lame reasons why something unexplainable didn't happen. Bad logic isn't the sole purvue of theists and creationists, I'[m afraid.
A really good example of this occurred on the National Geographic show called Is It Real?
This is a debunking show, no doubt about it, and it tries to ramp up the ridicule factor through the roof with snide remarks and really horrible example cases. Even the narrator talks with a pseudo-scary voice that seems always on the verge of laughter. It's really quite annoying, truth be told.
Anyhow, the episode on ghosts fell into a really horrible example of the disingenuous arguments skeptics will use when they run out of steam. In this case, it was about the electric voice phenomenon (EVP) that really doesn't have any good explanation. The National Geographic crew themselves left a recorder going in an empty room all night and actually picked up an unexplained voice.
BUT ... here's what they did. Instead of tackling the question of why there was a voice on the tape and how it might have gotten there, National Geographic turned it into a debate over what the voice actually said. I guess, in their minds, if it isn't a crystal clear voice that can be easily understood, then it doesn't count. And through it all, they never denied it WAS, in fact, a voice and instead deflected everyone's attention away from that fact and tried to dismiss the EVP phenomenon based on whether or not each and every word was pronounced nice and slow as if this were a 1st grade vocabulary lesson.
So yeah, you have to watch out for their tricks and pitfalls too - because even rational people can be irrational if they have something invested in how the conclusion turns out. It's the same reason why athletes can't bet on sports and why you can't take out a fire insurance policy on your neighbor's house.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Adamski, Socorro (oh yes) and indeed Villas Boas, have now fallen apart, rather. The Hills were telling the truth, but it seems that their dreams with a bit of Hypnosis were given rather too much weight.
Those guys were all crackpots, members of the "Contactee Movement." I think all of that is about as credible as Noah cramming 30 million animals onto a 450 foot long ark. Those who claim to have been contacted by aliens (like Billy Meier) give the UFO phenomena a sour stink - especially since one doesn't want to feel as if one is allying with their cause by accepting the possibility that aliens have actually visited here. That goes double with those "contactees" who are using aliens to further a political or social agenda (which most of them do).
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
How similar is the fingers in the ears denial of the crop -circle (now utterly discredited) fraternity to the blinkered denial of the creationists.
I'm not big into crop circles, but as for being completely discredited, not necessarily. I think the discrediting has as much to do with "pop culture" as the crop circles themselves. I know that two old guys named Doug and Dave originally came forward to take the credit - but that's just it, they just wanted the publicity and they received it. The reality is that crop circles are too pervasive and occur in all regions of the world, so unless Doug and Dave also know how to teleport and be in multiple places at once (and if they can do that, who cares about crop circles!) it wasn't Doug and Dave.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
How similar is the invalid link between the statistical probability of life and even sentient life somewhere in the universe (2) and the probability of Alien visitors in space craft, to the idea of a possible god somewhere in the universe ("Have you looked everywhere?") and the belief in a divine micromanaging being here on this earth, with us.
Ooh, well, when I made my little quip about UFO cults, I certainly wasn't trying to say that I thought alien visitations were completely off the table. I know that a lot of people like to equate alien visitations with a belief in a micromanaging god, but there are a few distinct differences.
The first is, of course, what I said originally - there is nothing supernatural about an alien visiting earth. It really doesn't matter how bizarre it sounds, there's nothing that prevents it. Ergo, it is no more bizarre than when the Aztecs saw the Conquistadors for the first time and thought they were gods (instead of flesh-and-blood humans who simply came from a long way away).
The second issue for me is that evidence for alien visitations is far more tangible than that of a god of any kind. Unfortunately, many atheists I know want 100% proof even before they'll consider it possible, which kind of defeats the point, I suppose. If we waited until we were 100% certain about things before considering them, there wouldn't even be science.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I have seen quite enough claims of secret cover ups, governmental complicity in military deals with aliens, but the fact is, that just like claims of miracles and OOBs, they are anecdotal and generally cannot be checked up. Thus they are pretty much worthless as evidence.
Agreed, for the most part. I could nitpick a little, but I won't since it really would be nitpicking.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
How similar is the claim that 'Why should they risk their reputation, and public ridicule claiming seeing something that didn't happen?' to 'Millions would not die for a lie.' The fact is that we were not there, and we don't even have the benefit of a fossil and DNA record to reconstruct the crime scene. It merely remains anecdotal. And therefore worthless as evidence.
Well, it's easy for Western Christians to chime in to proclaim with lots of gusto what their religious beliefs are knowing that THEY won't have to die for their beliefs. In fact, they'll be praised and lauded as "true Americans" for doing so. (It's we atheists who are evil commies, remember).
But I think the whole "risking their reputation" excuse is simply used for dramatic effect. I've heard interviews from people whose voices were barely changed, their images barely blurred or darkened. I thought to myself - you know, if I actually KNEW that person, I would be able to recognize him, and isn't this guy trying to disguise himself from the people he knows? Yeah, it didn't make a lot of sense.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Sagan also said 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.' The extraordinary claims of UFOlogy and Christianity require extraordinary proof, and yet what we get is virtually nothing worth a damn'.
I agree that, for UFOs, it's nothing worth a damn as far as making a definitive statement is concerned, but I do think there's enough there to at least consider it possible - even if one were to simply assign it a 1% chance of it being true.
The biggest problem with UFO evidence, in my opinion, is NOT that it is sparse or that it doesn't exist. No, the biggest problem with the evidence is that new sightings really don't advance our knowledge. The millionth mysterious light in the sky hasn't produced any new information than the first one did, and that is rather frustrating even for the die-hard believers.
One of the things I think skeptics overlook is that the UFO phenomenon, should there be any truth to it, is unlike any other mystery humanity has ever sought to unravel. For the first time in our existence, we are seeking to obtain knowledge about an intelligence greater than ours, an intelligence that does not have to play by our rules. Aliens are not animals acting on predictable "fight or flight" instincts nor are they neutral discoveries like a new planet or a lost continent that are not actively trying to avoid discovery. This is a whole new ballgame, so going by the old rulebook is obsolete thinking, IMO ... like how the military so often plans for the previous war instead of the next one.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
The only thing the Christian and UFO cult -thinking does not have in common is that UFOlogy does not claim that flying saucers with little grey (3) men should be accepted as true until definitively disproven 100%, but are constantly assembling a mass of photos, videos, radiation counts, burned corn and more and yet more stories of sightings, in the hope that the sheer weight of undisprovable if uncheckable material will be taken as conclusive evidence.
Conclusive, no ... but there IS evidence, enough to consider it at least a logical possibility, one that does not that require us to suspend reality in order for it to occur.
Remember, too, that not everyone who has looked at the data is a member of a cult. I'm certainly not, and not all evidence comes from cults. In fact, most of the evidence comes from average workaday people that have no ties at all to the cults and movements going on out there.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I haven't even touched on the links with UFO heavenly messages, prophecies..oh yes! miracle healing, yes, yes indeed and the 'BVM' The 'blessed virgin Mary' apparitions used as disguises by the aliens. But I have imposed on your-all patience long enough, and I will await a long overdue post claiming Fatima as miraculous proof of Jesusgod's existence.
Heh, yeah, that aspect of "Ufology" is what has made it so rotten. Either people are turning UFOs into an alternative religion or they are using it to push an agenda. During the 50's and 60's, it was nuclear weapons, during the 80's, it was excess materialism, and during the 2000's, it's been about global warming and the environment (the deforestation of the Amazon is a hot button topic with alien channelers these days). What's convenient is that these aliens always warn of impending doom if we don't immediately accept the "channeler's" agenda and adopt his or her lifestyle or culture. Sounds a bit like ... yeah, you guessed it, I'm sure.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
P.s Gotta...And yet...there IS a phenomenon. Airline pilots have seen something. The religious do experience something. There is something interesting and real to be looked at. What is wrong and indeed unscientific is to presuppose what it is and turn it into a faith - based cult or religion.
I couldn't agree more. Those sorts of people have done a good job of destroying what was once a fascinating subject - even if it turns out to be completely untrue.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Pps. never mind Chupacabra...but let's post the old scarey gnome. Remember? aused quite a stir at the time, until TWO different versions these kids had made turned up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EQO0VfBpt4
You have to admit, that gnome-thing WAS pretty damn creepy even if you knew it was fake.
... do I think they flew all of these light years to stick probes up people's backside? No ... I'm reasonably certain that that kind of buffoonery isn't taking place.
Me too, especially since if they have the technology to make people float into their ships they don't need something as crude as a probe to look inside our bodies either.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
But to dismiss the entire phenomena as 100% untrue because of the hoaxers and crackpots does the entire subject a rather grave injustice.
I don't dismiss either the (distinct IMO) probability of sentient aliens elsewhere in the universe -- nor the (less likely IMO) possibility they have visited here and the (even less likely IMO) probability that they are actively but surreptitiously visiting. But that the vast majority of persons interested in UFOs are crackpots does not tell me that its a particularly fruitful thing to investigate.
I suppose my bias is really less about the aliens themselves than a weariness with anything that remotely smacks of corner-of-your-eye now-you-see-it-now-you-don't phenomena around which elaborate belief systems and large groups of followers and hangers-on attach to. It's too much like religion.
Then there's the matter of why aliens would be covert. If they had something like a Star Trek-style "noninterference directive" then they would NOT be so different from us that they couldn't understand us; otherwise they'd have no affinity to us / compassion for us / respect for us. If they had some strange ethic we couldn't begin to understand about avoiding contact with us, then Occam's Razor applies ... just don't come here in the first place.
I don't know ... I get that alien sentience and biology could be totally incomprehensible to us -- heck, even my fellow humans can seem incomprehensible at times. But I have trouble believing that logic and evidence can be wielded that differently and still result in a high tech civilization. There could be huge differences in values and custom and ways of framing issues, but they would have to cope with the same physical laws as us and the challenges, distances and dangers involved, so it seems to me that there can't be that huge of a conceptual gulf between a society that can imagine interstellar travel and one that can actually do it.
But that the vast majority of persons interested in UFOs are crackpots does not tell me that its a particularly fruitful thing to investigate.
I don't think the majority who are interested in UFOs are crackpots. Most people interested are just average people - but average people are boring. That's why the media seeks out the wackjobs to publicize because that's what sells papers, magazines, and commercial air time.
There is a journalist named Angelia Joiner who worked for the Stephenville Empire-Tribune newspaper who covered the story of the big Stephenville, Texas UFO sighting a few years ago. She was fired (forced to resign) when she refused to add humor and jokes to her stories - then the paper refused to even cover the story any longer.
Then there was the infamous "Phoenix Lights" alien costume fiasco. The citizens of Phoenix were so insistent to know what those lights were that, almost six months after the event, Arizona governor Fife Symington held a press conference to announce who was responsible for the Phoenix Lights. In walks the governor's aid dressed in a ridiculous alien costume and everyone laughed. Meanwhile, the citizens were pissed off that the governor would crack jokes instead of offering up a real explanation.
(Later on, however, Governor Symington said, ""I'm a pilot and I know just about every machine that flies. It was bigger than anything that I've ever seen. It remains a great mystery. Other people saw it, responsible people. I don't know why people would ridicule it".)
The point I'm driving at here is that there DOES seem to be a concerted effort by the media and political PR departments to purposefully keep the subject of UFOs "light hearted" and borderline "slapstick" comedy, but it is infuriating the people who have actually seen these things.
Therefore, everyone seems like a crackpot because that's how the media portrays them - I think the media flirts with liable and slander laws all the time when dealing with this subject. And the result of all of this? You said it yourself - you feel that it isn't a fruitful thing to investigate. Viola!
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Originally Posted by mordant
I suppose my bias is really less about the aliens themselves than a weariness with anything that remotely smacks of corner-of-your-eye now-you-see-it-now-you-don't phenomena around which elaborate belief systems and large groups of followers and hangers-on attach to. It's too much like religion.
Yep, I agree 200% which is why I'm writing these posts. I'm trying to get people (whoever happens to read this) to realize that the subject of UFOs isn't about cults and religions and joining dorky organizations who want to communicate telepathically with our "space brothers and sisters." There are real people who do investigate these things, people who are scientists.
Take J. Alan Hyneck, for instance, the chairman of the astronomy department at Northwestern University. He was hired by the USAF to investigate UFOs and purposefully debunk them. It was Dr. Hynek who gave us all of the joke explanations like swamp gas, Venus, and weather balloons. Funny thing - after his contract with the USAF ran out, after years of dutifully debunking every UFO sighting he investigated, Dr. Hynek went out and founded the Center for UFO Studies because, yeah, after all of his investigating and debunking, he realized there WAS something to this phenomenon.
But the problem, as I mentioned previously, the subject doesn't really seem to be advancing anywhere. All we get are loads of sightings but no smoking gun, nothing that can allow us to definitively say that we are being visited - even when the process of elimination leaves little else in the way of an explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Then there's the matter of why aliens would be covert. If they had something like a Star Trek-style "noninterference directive" then they would NOT be so different from us that they couldn't understand us; otherwise they'd have no affinity to us / compassion for us / respect for us. If they had some strange ethic we couldn't begin to understand about avoiding contact with us, then Occam's Razor applies ... just don't come here in the first place.
Why not be covert? If I were the leader of an alien expedition to this planet, I would tell my men to lay low and don't get mixed up in the crap going on down there with humanity. You are as likely to get shot by some overzealous NRA nut as you are to be welcomed and embraced as our first contact with aliens. Humanity obviously doesn't have their shyte together, what, with all of the weapons, the primitive belief systems, with a third of the population still living in the Stone Age ... no way, men. Stay the hell away from them or we'll get wrapped up in a political nightmare - and that's not what we're here for!
And they may not be here for us - which is one of those humanocentric perceptions; aliens would naturally be here because of humanity, right? It is reminiscent of the island hopping campaign during WWII when US troops would land on a small Pacific island with natives living there. And of course the natives thought, surely these magnificent, godlike people are here because of us! The natives of course were utterly oblivious to the reality that America was only interested in building an airstrip there to use in a war the natives didn't even know was raging all around them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I don't know ... I get that alien sentience and biology could be totally incomprehensible to us -- heck, even my fellow humans can seem incomprehensible at times. But I have trouble believing that logic and evidence can be wielded that differently and still result in a high tech civilization.
Again, I agree. I do think there would be compatability between us and any alien that showed up here. If nothing else, the same curiosity and need to explore that drove the aliens into space to begin with would be a commonality with humanity. We're just hobbled by pettiness and an outmoded economic system that will forever prevent us from conducting the "too expensive" theoretical research needed for interstellar travel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
There could be huge differences in values and custom and ways of framing issues, but they would have to cope with the same physical laws as us and the challenges, distances and dangers involved, so it seems to me that there can't be that huge of a conceptual gulf between a society that can imagine interstellar travel and one that can actually do it.
Well, the prevailing theory now is that an alien species would likely send some sort of quasi-intelligent cybernetic organism into space - something that can endure long voyages without having to eat, go to the bathroom, be comfortable, be stimulated, and need to have their psychology catered to. Just remove the biology that makes a body needful and you have a good candidate for space travel.
But who really knows? An alien species might be very far-sighted in their vision, thus they aren't concerned if it takes 500 years for a ship to reach us - they're willing to wait. Or perhaps the alien species is extremely long-lived and can stand a 100 year space voyage in the same way we endure a 20 minute ride to the grocery store. Their priorities are likely to be very different from ours (which is why they're a spacefaring species and we're not) and that could cause some friction.
But hey, it's all speculative. We don't even know if aliens exist much less if they're coming here. I just find it an interesting subject.
I’m surprised that no one is flabbergasted by the statements aboutJesus, seeing that this sub-forum is Religion and Spirituality.
I often encounter skeptics that request evidence or proofs of theUFO/ET phenomenon. According to AREQUIPA above, Carl Sagan stated that “Extraordinaryclaims require extraordinary proof.” What did he mean by the statement? Do any of the skeptics here even know what they would regard or acceptas concrete proofs and suggest reasonable ways to go about obtaining such proofs?
There are more than enough evidences and even proofs of thephenomenon if one is willing and patient enough to search.
I could not let this pass withoutchecking...I was absolutely amazed that almost half of Americans (48%) believein UFOs, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised since 46% believe in creation.One myth is as credible as another I suppose.
On this subject is where I tend to partcompany with my atheistic and empirical friends and colleagues. Far too manylike to lump alien visitations in with astrology, ESP, Tarot cards, palmreading, and fringy spiritual and New Age belief systems.
I’m not familiar with such New Age beliefsystems. If you know of any, could youelaborate with specific examples?
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Originally Posted by Shirina
I think the lady dost protest too much, ifyou know what I mean.
I’m not sure aboutthe person you’re addressing, but I don’t know what you mean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
The biggest problem with UFO evidence, in my opinion,is NOT that it is sparse or that it doesn't exist. No, the biggest problem withthe evidence is that new sightings really don't advance our knowledge. Themillionth mysterious light in the sky hasn't produced any new information thanthe first one did, and that is rather frustrating even for the die-hardbelievers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
One of the things I think skeptics overlook is that the UFO phenomenon, shouldthere be any truth to it, is unlike any other mystery humanity has ever soughtto unravel. For the first time in our existence, we are seeking to obtainknowledge about an intelligence greater than ours, an intelligence that doesnot have to play by our rules.
True in a way… However, more sightingsdo indicate the persistency of this phenomenon that just could not be sweptunder the rug, no matter how hard skeptics have tried for however many decades.
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Originally Posted by Tired of theNonsense
Have we been visitedby space aliens? No, probably not. There is no actual hard evidence of it. Andgiven the massive distance between the stars, the chances of there beinganother technologically capable species anywhere close enough to reach us ispretty low. Technologically capable species seem to be a particularly rarephenomenon. Out of the millions of species who have ever existed on thisplanet, humans seem to be the first and only with the ability to consider thatvisiting nearby star systems is even a possibility.
We need to discard theanthropocentric view of ourselves in the universe in order to gain the correctperspective in a greater panorama of life in the universe. To that end, you need to be patient enough tobe with the questions without coming to any conclusion. Otherwise, your answers will be based onassumptions, preferences, fears, and false hopes.
Despite the fact that human beings regard themselves as very superior, intelligent, andtechnologically advanced, the human race is but a young, emerging race amongcountless many races in the universe. Inour local universe consisting of about 5000 solar systems, many races occupyingthese solar systems are technologically advanced, mature societies that havebeen established for a very long time. Becausetechnological advancement often leads to depletion of resources as isdemonstrated even in our world, such societies must travel across the space toacquire resources. So, there are worldsthat are technologically much more advanced than ours and whose technologyenables them to travel the space at superluminal speeds. I have sighted five UFOs, at least one ofwhich reached a superluminal speed from a stationary position in the sky withina second or so. So my sightingexperience as well as many other people’s validates the ETs’ capability oftravelling at superluminal speeds. It isdetrimental to make assumptions such as “… given the massive distance between thestars, the chances of there being another technologically capable speciesanywhere close enough to reach us is pretty low. Technologically capablespecies seem to be a particularly rare phenomenon.” Why detrimental? For it blinds you from seeing the reality asis – a reality that humanity is at a turning point where it must collectivelytake the correction action to thwart the ET Intervention, or it will lose itsfreedom, self-determination, and sovereignty of our solar system to foreignraces from outer space.
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Originally Posted by mordant
But I don't think they'd come all that wayand take all the trouble to conceal themselves only for the purpose of gazinginto our body openings. I think most of the UFO folks are conspiracy theoristsand bored new agers.
Again, you would need to hold your “thinking.” The ETs are carrying out specific activities fora specific goal. They would have toconceal themselves, lest their sinister activities may be revealed. One of the four major areas of activities theETs have been carrying out is a hybridization program to create human-alienhybrid that would look like human beings but who would be completely allegiantto their ET superiors. The ETs wouldplace the hybrids strategically in human societies for the ultimate goal oftaking control of the world clandestinely. Other human beings are taken to be “educated” about the ETs to accept,welcome, and support them. Thesemind-controlled abductees are then returned to rally other human beings to accept,welcome, and support all ETs or certain race(s) of ETs.
Adamski, Socorro (oh yes) and indeed Villas Boas, have now fallen apart, rather. The Hills were telling the truth, but it seems that their dreams with a bit of Hypnosis were given rather too much weight.
How similar is the fingers in the ears denial of the crop -circle (now utterly discredited) fraternity to the blinkered denial of the creationists. How similar is the invalid link between the statistical probability of life and even sentient life somewhere in the universe (2) and the probability of Alien visitors in space craft, to the idea of a possible god somewhere in the universe ("Have you looked everywhere?") and the belief in a divine micromanaging being here on this earth, with us.
I have seen quite enough claims of secret cover ups, governmental complicity in military deals with aliens, but the fact is, that just like claims of miracles and OOBs, they are anecdotal and generally cannot be checked up. Thus they are pretty much worthless as evidence.
How similar is the claim that 'Why should they risk their reputation, and public ridicule claiming seeing something that didn't happen?' to 'Millions would not die for a lie.' The fact is that we were not there, and we don't even have the benefit of a fossil and DNA record to reconstruct the crime scene. It merely remains anecdotal. And therefore worthless as evidence.
Does it make you feel intelligent to dismiss these people's experiences as "anecdotal"? Or are you just too afraid to face the reality of the phenomenon?
Last edited by ResistTheETIntervention; 02-18-2014 at 02:53 PM..
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and the 'BVM' 
The 'blessed virgin Mary' apparitions used as disguises by the aliens. But I have imposed on your-all 
patience long enough, and I will await a long overdue post claiming Fatima as miraculous proof of Jesusgod's existence.
