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Did some research and Romney was a Bishop of a ward twice and then a Stake President. (Think of this as being "pastor" of a local congregation and then a leader of a group of pastors for a region). He is no longer in those duties. Those duties are not paid duties. Once those in that position are "replaced" you aren't a "official" leader anymore. It is practice to call them Bishop or President after they are served more as a mark of respect for their past office and they indeed can be called up again just like I could for that matter.
It's probably because the Scientologists, Moslems, or LDS don't share your view. They don't think their religions teach idiocy. Your second observation needs no comment.
Most religions contain screwy dogma, but it appears as though many followers of the older ones just edit out the chaff in their beliefs and practices.
The newer religions, ususally called cults by the older, also contain 'junk religious ideas', but are not mature enough to cast aside the garbage. Sure, they don't think it's idiocy. That's the very reason why some people think they are dangerous and cultish.
If a LDS member said 'I dont believe the living prophet is, indeed, talking directly to God any more than I am and I will only follow suggestions in the Doctrines and Covenants that I find sensible' - that would be a good start. Or, hows about 'Sure Joe Smith might have been a con man, which makes the Church meticulous today in weeding out any dirty dealings that our businessmen do with outsiders'. Or, 'Our religion teaches compassion and fairness and helping those weakest in society, so we will prosecute these multiple marriages when they take tax dollars to support their brood and we will vigourously test the scholastic achievment of children in their schools to ensure that they are getting a good, healthy education that will serve them well both in and outside of their cult.'
Those would be good things that demonstrate maturity of the people.
Whenever someone used to quote statistics saying there are more whites on welfare than minorities, I did not immediately think of those poor families in the Ozarks, but all those big, Mormon families.
When I hear of the white slave trade in eastern europe, I shudder. How much worse is it when schools for your little girls actually brainwash these kids to be slaves for the rest of their lives? It's no wonder that, by the time they are adults and moms of 13 children they are both filled with hatred as well as terrified of the outside world, a world in which they have been taught no survival skills. The outer world does not allow the 'positions wanted' column of newspapers to include housekeeper/breeders.
Talk about sins against nature! If, in other states, several families got together and decided to home school their children into such a position they would definately be charged with child abuse. These sickos hide under the cloak of religion, and the 'good' religious folk of the state that they are in allow them to get away with this, and do not protect the children.
This, to me, is different than adults moving freely in society deciding that a multiple marriage might be a good thing. There are educated adults there, deciding amongst various options open to them. They can blend in with society, get jobs, go to college, marry whom they choose. So long as they are not asking for my taxes to rear their kids, I'm fine with that.
But twisting the minds of your innocent little girls - how can people who call themselves religious tolerate that among them?
Did some research and Romney was a Bishop of a ward twice and then a Stake President. (Think of this as being "pastor" of a local congregation and then a leader of a group of pastors for a region). He is no longer in those duties. Those duties are not paid duties. Once those in that position are "replaced" you aren't a "official" leader anymore. It is practice to call them Bishop or President after they are served more as a mark of respect for their past office and they indeed can be called up again just like I could for that matter.
John
Thank you for the info.
I think if we understood more things would be better.
I know I am harsh at times.
Religions which seem to demand strict adherence to arbitrary laws upset me. Often, not for the laws themselves, but that it is not healthy to short-circuit human thought and free will and logic.
This might not interest you, but there is an article, not about LDS, but asking for a moderate voice to speak out against fundamentalists.
HTTP://WWW.NYTIMES.COM/2007/12/07/OPINION/07ALI.HTML?EX=1197781200&EN=AD449ED327E9896D&EI=50 70&EMC=ETA1 (broken link)
By AYAAN HIRSI ALI
Published: December 7, 2007
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with 100 stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. (Koran 24:2)
IN the last few weeks, in three widely publicized episodes, we have seen Islamic justice enacted in ways that should make Muslim moderates rise up in horror.Moderator cut: copyright-snippet and link only please
Last edited by Alpha8207; 12-10-2007 at 08:12 AM..
Most religions contain screwy dogma, but it appears as though many followers of the older ones just edit out the chaff in their beliefs and practices.
The newer religions, ususally called cults by the older, also contain 'junk religious ideas', but are not mature enough to cast aside the garbage. Sure, they don't think it's idiocy. That's the very reason why some people think they are dangerous and cultish.
If a LDS member said 'I dont believe the living prophet is, indeed, talking directly to God any more than I am and I will only follow suggestions in the Doctrines and Covenants that I find sensible' - that would be a good start. Or, hows about 'Sure Joe Smith might have been a con man, which makes the Church meticulous today in weeding out any dirty dealings that our businessmen do with outsiders'. Or, 'Our religion teaches compassion and fairness and helping those weakest in society, so we will prosecute these multiple marriages when they take tax dollars to support their brood and we will vigourously test the scholastic achievment of children in their schools to ensure that they are getting a good, healthy education that will serve them well both in and outside of their cult.'
Those would be good things that demonstrate maturity of the people.
Whenever someone used to quote statistics saying there are more whites on welfare than minorities, I did not immediately think of those poor families in the Ozarks, but all those big, Mormon families.
When I hear of the white slave trade in eastern europe, I shudder. How much worse is it when schools for your little girls actually brainwash these kids to be slaves for the rest of their lives? It's no wonder that, by the time they are adults and moms of 13 children they are both filled with hatred as well as terrified of the outside world, a world in which they have been taught no survival skills. The outer world does not allow the 'positions wanted' column of newspapers to include housekeeper/breeders.
Talk about sins against nature! If, in other states, several families got together and decided to home school their children into such a position they would definately be charged with child abuse. These sickos hide under the cloak of religion, and the 'good' religious folk of the state that they are in allow them to get away with this, and do not protect the children.
This, to me, is different than adults moving freely in society deciding that a multiple marriage might be a good thing. There are educated adults there, deciding amongst various options open to them. They can blend in with society, get jobs, go to college, marry whom they choose. So long as they are not asking for my taxes to rear their kids, I'm fine with that.
But twisting the minds of your innocent little girls - how can people who call themselves religious tolerate that among them?
There are ways, legally, to prevent this.
I believe you are confused between the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City and the isolated breakaway polygamy sects, including the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Warren Jeffs was the head of the FLDS church The breakaway sects are not affiliated in anyway with the LDS church, and the LDS church considers them apostate (as they probably do in return). The mainstream Church has a membership of about 12 million. It excommunicates anyone practicing polygamy.
I don't know the exact number of members in such polygamous sects, but it is in the few tens of thousands. While certainly a drain on local resources where these groups are (Utah, Arizona, Texas, South Dakota, among others), I don't think there numbers are hugely material on the overall welfare costs to the country.
Additionally, I don't think you'll find a lot of the large families of the main LDS Church on public welfare. Sure you might find a few, but doubtful more than the general population. In fact the LDS Church has its own self-funded welfare system, which probably reduces the need for its members to seek public assistance. In fact, I am the financial clerk for my LDS ward. There are maybe a half-dozen families in my ward who ocassionally seek assistance, out of about 100. The largest of those families has four kids. Another family has three. In both cases, chronic illness of one of the parents is the root cause of their need. The others that I can think of are divorcees with one or two kids, or older couples on fixed incomes.
Lastly, doctrinally, the belief that there is a prophet on the earth today is a key difference between the LDS and other religions. So therefore, anyone who rejects that idea probably wouldn't have much doctrinal foundation to continue with their membership. That does not mean blind obedience is required. I have always been taught to do my own study, thinking, and prayer to verify that I am on the right path.
Lastly, doctrinally, the belief that there is a prophet on the earth today is a key difference between the LDS and other religions. So therefore, anyone who rejects that idea probably wouldn't have much doctrinal foundation to continue with their membership. That does not mean blind obedience is required. I have always been taught to do my own study, thinking, and prayer to verify that I am on the right path.
Does that encouragement to reach your own conclusions regarding doctrine extend to all of the LDS, or were you just lucky enough to end up in a place with more intelligent and compassionate leaders? I ask because so many people who say they were LDS and left say their questions were answered with a curt rebuff and request that they no longer ask such things.
I know about Jeffs and those strange people. I just do not see anyone (really) saying that the heart of this problem is the twisting of young minds. I do not see the areas that they settle in are going after them for child abuse. Some of these encampments are in Utah, and I would expect some actual legal movement against them.
Everyone in the media seems to shrink from the multiple wife issue. That is not the issue, because there are some households in which mature women, reared on the 'outside' decide it might be a good lifestyle for them.
The issue is child abuse, how the children are taught in such a way that there really are no choices left to them by the time they are given to such a marriage.
Sorry if I am venting. Some of you LDS people seem very sound and decent. I am beginning to think the problems may be in the people who 'control' various wards. Some seem like dictators. You would think that the Church would somehow get the message from the wardmembers that some of the leadership is wanting and get rid of them. One ego driven zealot can ruin the religion in the minds of a good number of people.
Does that encouragement to reach your own conclusions regarding doctrine extend to all of the LDS, or were you just lucky enough to end up in a place with more intelligent and compassionate leaders? I ask because so many people who say they were LDS and left say their questions were answered with a curt rebuff and request that they no longer ask such things.
I know about Jeffs and those strange people. I just do not see anyone (really) saying that the heart of this problem is the twisting of young minds. I do not see the areas that they settle in are going after them for child abuse. Some of these encampments are in Utah, and I would expect some actual legal movement against them.
Everyone in the media seems to shrink from the multiple wife issue. That is not the issue, because there are some households in which mature women, reared on the 'outside' decide it might be a good lifestyle for them.
The issue is child abuse, how the children are taught in such a way that there really are no choices left to them by the time they are given to such a marriage.
Sorry if I am venting. Some of you LDS people seem very sound and decent. I am beginning to think the problems may be in the people who 'control' various wards. Some seem like dictators. You would think that the Church would somehow get the message from the wardmembers that some of the leadership is wanting and get rid of them. One ego driven zealot can ruin the religion in the minds of a good number of people.
If you don't like child abuse, which is against the law, and you don't like the fact that no one seems to be doing anything about it, then you need to complain to the those enforcement agencies where you beleive the practice to exist. I also suggest writing your elected representatives. Posting here serves no purpose and only makes you part of your own self-defined problem.
I also want to ask once again. What does anything you have posted in the last ten times have to do with Mormons and Masons?
Romney is having religious problems with the public because people, in general, know very little about the LDS, and much of what they know for a fact is that these fringe groups who do not properly educate their little girls, raise them to be slaves for older men - and the 'proper' mainstream LDS group do nothing to free these children from being prepared for such abuse through the educational system that does not educate.
Of course the 'proper' LDS mainstream church does nothing. What right would it have to do anything any more than the Baptists or the Seventh Day Adventists, or the Moonies or the Jehovah's Witnesses? They are not part of the 'proper' church and therefore the 'proper' church has no jurisdiction over them. They are not 'fringe groups' they are separate and distinct indivually governed organisations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
Sorry if I am venting. Some of you LDS people seem very sound and decent. I am beginning to think the problems may be in the people who 'control' various wards. Some seem like dictators. You would think that the Church would somehow get the message from the wardmembers that some of the leadership is wanting and get rid of them. One ego driven zealot can ruin the religion in the minds of a good number of people.
There is no such thing as 'people who control the various wards'. The three people who look after the ward are the Bishopric (a Bishop and two counsellors) and no one person makes any decision. In fact decisions are decided at Ward Council which will also involve leaders of the other auxiliaries within the ward such as Relief Society, Primary etc. One thing about us LDS which people in other churches often find hard to grasp is that we don't actually have any clergy as such. The chap who is currently our Bishop could be released next week and receive a new calling as a Sunday school teacher. Our previous Bishop is currently the ward Mission Leader. I used to be on the Primary Presidency and have served on the Relief Society Presidency and been a Primary teacher and a Sunday School teacher and a missionary and a press officer and an activities chairperson and a home making leader and I'm currently a Relief Society teacher. We swap about. There's no such thing as 'congregation and leaders' because everyone in the congregation either is, has been or will be some kind of leader.
Oh and the preaching on a Sunday is done by different members of the Ward on request, rarely by Bishops themselves. Once a month the floor is open for anyone and everyone (time permitting) to bear their testimony.
There are no paid clergy, no paid positions within the ward. Everybody has a day job.
Of course the 'proper' LDS mainstream church does nothing. What right would it have to do anything any more than the Baptists or the Seventh Day Adventists, or the Moonies or the Jehovah's Witnesses? They are not part of the 'proper' church and therefore the 'proper' church has no jurisdiction over them. They are not 'fringe groups' they are separate and distinct indivually governed organisations.
There is no such thing as 'people who control the various wards'. The three people who look after the ward are the Bishopric (a Bishop and two counsellors) and no one person makes any decision. In fact decisions are decided at Ward Council which will also involve leaders of the other auxiliaries within the ward such as Relief Society, Primary etc. One thing about us LDS which people in other churches often find hard to grasp is that we don't actually have any clergy as such. The chap who is currently our Bishop could be released next week and receive a new calling as a Sunday school teacher. Our previous Bishop is currently the ward Mission Leader. I used to be on the Primary Presidency and have served on the Relief Society Presidency and been a Primary teacher and a Sunday School teacher and a missionary and a press officer and an activities chairperson and a home making leader and I'm currently a Relief Society teacher. We swap about. There's no such thing as 'congregation and leaders' because everyone in the congregation either is, has been or will be some kind of leader.
Oh and the preaching on a Sunday is done by different members of the Ward on request, rarely by Bishops themselves. Once a month the floor is open for anyone and everyone (time permitting) to bear their testimony.
There are no paid clergy, no paid positions within the ward. Everybody has a day job.
This sounds complicated, but interesting.
I like the open floor thing. It promotes a sense of community and perhaps helps people out of their problems.
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