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Yes, but your definition of explaining them is to find a way to say it isn't so. Preconceptions is the skeptics way of doing business.
You are confusing seeing no reason to believe something with seeking a way not to believe. Give me a reason to believe and I will.
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Originally Posted by Mr5150
The true seeker puts away all agendas and preconceptions and say "OK, whatever. Let's see where this takes us".
The irony is that as soon as I adopted that very attitude, guess where it took me.
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Originally Posted by Mr5150
Do you not agree that you seek to find some explanation that explains away the supernatural when confronted with an alleged spiritual situation?
Nope. I am a being who is part of the natural world and I can't even engage the concept of the supernatural. If I could see it and work with it and test it, it would not BE supernatural. If I can't see it and work with it and test it, then there's nothing whatsoever that can even be said about it. So the supernatural is a completely useless concept.
What I seek with regard to any belief is a good reason to believe it. Just as you do in many areas of life. If I told you that I can fly by flapping my arms you would see no reason to believe that. If I really THOUGHT I could fly and felt offended that you don't believe I suppose that I could claim that you are just looking for reasons to explain away my abilities when confronted with my allegations that I can fly. And then I can just dismiss it as your loss because your'e obstinate. Somehow though I don't think you would find that a very compelling argument.
You are confusing seeing no reason to believe something with seeking a way not to believe. Give me a reason to believe and I will.
The irony is that as soon as I adopted that very attitude, guess where it took me.
Nope. I am a being who is part of the natural world and I can't even engage the concept of the supernatural. If I could see it and work with it and test it, it would not BE supernatural. If I can't see it and work with it and test it, then there's nothing whatsoever that can even be said about it. So the supernatural is a completely useless concept.
Yep. So don't complain when the spiritual does not work for You. It never will, because you have made choices and aim to stick by them. You do not wish to consider reasons. You may as well ask for proof that I love my wife. If you were truly open to the possibility of the spiritual we would not be having this conversation.
Arq has made different choices. (I hope) He is not BS'ing. Come April 2, we shall see.
I am a being who is part of the natural world and I can't even engage the concept of the supernatural.
I feel exactly the same way. I sure don't understand how the natural world works, but I believe that is all we have, and I am happy to be a small part of it for a little while.
I have never had a spiritual thought or ever suspected there is anything supernatural.
As Alan Jackson says:
"Well, it's alright to be little bitty
A little hometown or a big old city
Might as well share, might as well smile
Life goes on for a little bitty while."
Yes, but your definition of explaining them is to find a way to say it isn't so. Preconceptions is the skeptics way of doing business.
It is a preconception to say that an unknown phenomenon (in this case, an intense emotional experience) must be of supernatural origin. Unfortunately, humans have always had a tendency to believe that mysterious, awesome or frightening phenomena were caused by supernatural beings. Historically, the supernatural was often the natural which was not yet understood.
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Originally Posted by Mr5150
The true seeker puts away all agendas and preconceptions and say "OK, whatever. Let's see where this takes us".
It is a preconception to assume that Arq's experience takes us to the conclusion that the Christian God (or some other deity) caused it. I am willing to say "I don't understand what happened to Arq". I am not willing to jump to the conclusion that a god did it simply because I don't understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Do you not agree that you seek to find some explanation that explains away the supernatural when confronted with an alleged spiritual situation?
I can't speak for mordant, but I seek to find a real explanation rather than the "god did it" cop out. "God did it" is not an explanation at all.
When I had a panic attack for the first time, the experience was so bizzarre and terrifying that I wondered if something supernatural was going on. Demonic possession actually crossed my mind. Thankfully, when I told a doctor (and not a priest) what happened, she knew exactly what happened to me. Thank you modern medicine!
Who knows what would have happened to a person suffering from panic attacks in medieval Europe. They probably would have been burned at the stake for demon possession. Do you see why a person like me seeks scientific explanations rather than religious "explanations" for unknown phenomena, including unknown psychological phenomena?
Scientific explanations for unknown phenomena can actually improve the human condition. Religious explanations give us nothing, other than the fear that the bad things in life are caused by angry deities who are punishing us. The end result is sacrificing virgins to appease the wrath of the gods.
The LOVE (appropriately capitalized Arq) IS indescribable and all-encompassing. I did not get the sense of property. It was definitely a oneness (as in children reproducing Him).
it is as unproductive to question that as to question why a Tsunami wipes out thousands. I have no answers and suspect that the irrelevance of this physical reality will be equivalent to the after birth of a physical birth. Our reality may in the final analysis only differ from dreams as a matter of degree, not kind.
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Originally Posted by hiker45
Oh no, Mystics at it again! Run for the hills before it is too late!!
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Originally Posted by ~HecateWhisperCat~
*dives into foxhole*
Cowards!
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Originally Posted by mordant
I am a being who is part of the natural world and I can't even engage the concept of the supernatural.
You do know that the supernatural is a human construct without any foundation at all. There is nothing supernatural that can be pointed to and there is no known vector for deriving any such thing. All that we can say is that there are things we do not yet know or understand, period.
What if the way that God works is not as "supernatural" as it seems?
For example, the bad mental energy of a people who have turned from God to money and selfish thoughts (such as Christians in America), that type of mental activity actually affects the weather and causes a drought?
We know that animals can sense fear and danger. There is no "natural" explanation for that ability. Maybe humans have a similar telepathic ability which can disrupt the natural order of things.
What if the way that God works is not as "supernatural" as it seems?
For example, the bad mental energy of a people who have turned from God to money and selfish thoughts (such as Christians in America), that type of mental activity actually affects the weather and causes a drought?
We know that animals can sense fear and danger. There is no "natural" explanation for that ability. Maybe humans have a similar telepathic ability which can disrupt the natural order of things.
Of course there is. Look it up. You can start with 'chemosignals'.
Those familiar with my posting will know that I put concepts before definitions. 'Supernatural' is merely a handy label for suggesting an idea we all have, so we know what we are talking about. The 'supernatural is, of course natural - it has to be - but to use the term 'natural' would mislead us into thinking about what science has been able to explain - for example the evolved 'Chemosignals' instinctively triggered as an evolved survival mechanism.
I should also comment that it will be known that have a bad habit of foopnotes, parenthesis, digression and capitals. What makes that worse is that words I am using are approximations of what they are related to and there is a difference between faith and Faith and love and Love. The vagueness is partly because it really is all a bit vague but mainly because I can already see problems with stating what I'm getting when others appeared to get something different. It's just too soon for theological dispute - never mind references to scripture - of any faith. And mainly - I'm just sharing and only doing any more than that because of some good questions. I am not going to be popping up in every other post to lecture on 'This is the facts'.
I don't know about anybody else but there are two major questions I would be curious to know the answers you have been given if they were, in fact,'revealed' to you.
Let us know when and if you are willing to do so.
The answer I always give to girlfriends (who being wimmin, always want to dig out all your secrets) is "Ask anything you like. Sometimes I'll say "No"."
You probably already answered one of them with your previous post but maybe I'll get lucky and not get a 'non- answer' like that, which I translated as "Whatever you want it to be"
Let's see how this one goes. Is there an afterlife with any kind of awareness?
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The answer I always give to girlfriends (who being wimmin, always want to dig out all your secrets) is "Ask anything you like. Sometimes I'll say "No"."