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The bulk of these are just wrong, and are clearly just a smokescreen to cover the real motivation at work here.
-NoCapo
No matter the stated reasons, including religion . . . they are not likely to be the real reasons, NoCapo. The extremity of the abreaction to gays is telling. The real reasons are far more likely to be visceral than intellectual.
I always love these! Invariably they are written by Christians who oppose gay marriage for religious reasons, but try to cobble together a secular justification. Guess what, it is painfully obvious.
The second link even explicitly states that these are talking points for believers with religious objections to gay marriage to whip out to try to demonstrate that there are secular reasons. I see that you are following the instructions .
The bulk of these are just wrong, and are clearly just a smokescreen to cover the real motivation at work here.
-NoCapo
Gagnon is well known in Presbyterian circles as the dissenting theologian. Although he frequently attempts to bring sociological arguments to bear, all his degrees are in theology.
And Presbyterians remain split, with the majority supporting same sex marriage and the inclusion of practicing homosexuals in their congregations.
Here is an opposing view to Gagnon by another Presbyterian theologian, Holly E. Hearon, Asst. Professor of NT at Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis:
Quote:
I am also troubled by Gagnon’s assertion that creation supports the idea of “gender complementarity.” I look at God’s creation and see people who are born with both male and female physical sexual characteristics and find myself forced to ask, “are these people God’s mistakes?” (Even among the early rabbis it was recognized that humans cannot be exclusively divided into two gender groups: e.g., m. Arakhin 1:1 recognizes four “gender” groups: masculine, feminine, androgyne, and persons of indeterminate gender.) I visit the aquarium and learn about Sheephead fish, all of which begin life “female,” a few later becoming “male” for the sake of procreation, then most reverting to a “female” state. This amazing transformation reminds me of Paul’s words in Galatians 3:28 (there is “no longer male and female” * a text Gagnon does not consider in relation to the idea of “gender complementarity”). I cannot conclude, as Gagnon does, that “gender complementarity” is normative to the degree that all other expressions of gender are excluded.
She basically takes Gagnon to task for all his presentation in his book The Bible and Homosexual Practice.
Another response from a great Presbyterian church theologian is in Jack Roger's book, Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality: Explode the Myths, Heal the Church. Jack points to his own change from conservative to liberal on the issue of homosexuality and the book is how he arrived at that position.
Gagnon is now in the minority of his denominations views. They are accepting homosexuals as church leaders.
From a letter to the Presbyterian denomination by Desmond Tutu:
Quote:
23 September 2011
The Rev. Gradye Parsons
Stated Clerk
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
100 Witherspoon Street
Louisville KY 40202-1396
Dear Brother in Christ,
I am writing you with the request that you share these thoughts with my brothers and sisters in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): It is incumbent upon all of God’s children to speak out against injustice. It is sometimes equally important to speak in solidarity when justice has been done. For that reason I am writing to affirm my belief that in making room in your constitution for gay and lesbian Christians to be ordained as church leaders, you have accomplished an act of justice.
I'm on vacation so this all I have time for today:
Would you make the same argument if this was a couple who practiced incest or bestiality? Jesus puts homosexuality in the same category. Children are absolutely not better off with a gay couple. Their sin could very well introduce demonic influence into these children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Well, bless your heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
More mockery, I'm not surprised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Actually, that wasn't mockery. But now that you've brought it up, that idea deserves much more than mockery. It deserves condemnation.
I hereby condemn that idea.
You are right, Dew . . . that wasn't mockery . . . but this might be:
I'm on vacation so this all I have time for today:
Would you make the same argument if this was a couple who practiced incest or bestiality? Jesus puts homosexuality in the same category. Children are absolutely not better off with a gay couple. Their sin could very well introduce demonic influence into these children.
Do you even have any idea what century this is? You might want to go outside and notice the cars and buildings, the way people dress, the planes in the sky, or even look hard at the magic box you're using to type your posts.
Yeah!
It's not the 1200's anymore.
Demonic influences. Wow.
Oh by the way, you need to read your own damn Bible. Jesus doesn't say ANYTHING about homosexuality. No, not one word, syllable, or even one single letter was said by Jesus in either support or condemnation of homosexuality. To claim Jesus put homosexuality in ANY category is either a total lie or proof of your Biblical ignorance.
LOL! Demonic influences. That's going to be a thigh-slapper when I tell my friends later today.
You are right, Dew . . . that wasn't mockery . . . but this might be:
And guess what we dont do? We dont threaten to murder people and burn down businesses unlike the people you passionately support. more proof that homosexuality is ripe with hate.
And guess what we dont do? We dont threaten to murder people and burn down businesses unlike the people you passionately support. more proof that homosexuality is ripe with hate.
And guess what we dont do? We dont threaten to murder people and burn down businesses unlike the people you passionately support. more proof that homosexuality is ripe with hate.
Except many of your people do. You just disown them and pretend they were not "really Christian" when they do it. So you pretend Christianity is much more perfect than it is by simply only acknowledging the Christians who fit that narrative, much the same way as you pretend that atheists are much worse than they are by also ignoring any atheists who do not fit that narrative and focusing solely and stridently on the cherry picked minority that do.
And guess what we dont do? We dont threaten to murder people and burn down businesses unlike the people you passionately support. more proof that homosexuality is ripe with hate.
Oh, now THERE'S a steaming pile of horse manure if ever there was one.
Your entire RELIGION not only threatens to kill gays, it specifically and succinctly TELLS you to murder them.
The only difference between the more militant gays threatening to kill people or burn down shops is that they're being honest and above board about how they feel.
Almost certainly there are hundreds of thousands of Christians who really DO think gays need to be killed in order to please God and be in compliance with Leviticus. Old_cold just posted one such example (which I'm sure you will ignore - as you will ignore this post).
In fact, every time there is a major tragedy in this country, whether it's an act of terrorism, a natural disaster, a financial meltdown, or a school shooting, guess who gets blamed. Yeah, you know who I'm talking about: Homosexuals.
"God is angry at America for granting homosexuals their rights ... let's get 'em before God decides to go to another country and bless them instead of us!"
The bottom line is quite simple - and quite frightening. The ONLY thing that keeps homosexuals safe from fundamentalists is our secular law. Period.
If, for some reason those laws were ever lifted, you know as I do that there would be groups of Christian fundamentalists whose mission would be to kill gays. And people like you, Jeff, would almost assuredly stand aside and allow them to do it without so much as a peep of disapproval.
But I now realize I was wrong about something. At the beginning of my post, I said the "only difference" between militant gays and Christian fundamentalists is that the gays are being honest and above board.
Well, that's not true. There IS a second difference between the two:
The militant gays are making threats because of the actions of fundamentalists who seek to marginalize and eject homosexuals from American society in any way they can. In other words, self defense.
Christian fundamentalists, on the other hand, want to kill gays simply because they exist.
Ergo, comparing the two is ludicrous and makes for a lousy argument.
It's the dark heart of fundamentalism. They literally demonize gays and lesbians.
Meanwhile 30,000 kids a year age out of the foster care system. Kids who could have loving homes with a gay parent(s)...... except for the fact that people who share that poster's beliefs write laws that say gays can't adopt.
I look forward to the day those laws are wiped off the books. Thankfully there are people challenging those laws and fighting for equal rights. They exist because of religious extremism and are keeping kids from being adopted by parents who will love and support them.
And guess what we dont do? We dont threaten to murder people and burn down businesses unlike the people you passionately support. more proof that homosexuality is ripe with hate.
No, you just blow up abortion clinics.
You are defining one group by its extremists. I can play that game too
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