Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
What if the Christian Anti-Christ is the awaited Jewish Messiah?...and his job is to defeat a heretical religion that has gotten out of control and has deceived multitudes of people throughout history?...Seeing as how the Christians were just a TO Jewish movement initially until Paul got a hold on it...This is just a thought based on another poster in another thread stating that the Moshiach that the Jews were waiting for is descriptive of the Anti-Christ...
|
What I said was basically not 'what if' but "how could it be any other way?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
That's an interesting situation.
There is another thought - Christians are waiting and waiting but it didn't happen, so now they have been lead to believe that blood shed of innocent Palestinians is the sign of Jesus coming.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Amazing, ain't it?...
|
Aside from the sarcasm... Christians who believe in the return of Jesus are waiting but it hasn't happened. Judaists are waiting for the messiah to be revealed but that hasn't happened either.
Assuming these are not just stories made up to capture the minds of the multitudes (in hope that some savior will arrive and sort things out for those multitudes) then there can be no doubt that the Judaist messiah WILL be mistaken by that sector of Christiandom which believes the Anti-Christ must first enter the world stage and do amazing things to deceived the world into following him...
Three things could happen in relation to this.
1: The Judaist messiah reveals himself and helps the world help itself, and there is none of that promised outcome of deception and misery from the attempt, such as writ in Revelations re the Anti-Christ.
2: The Judaist messiah reveals himself and helps the world help itself, but it goes the way of that promised outcome of deception and misery from the attempt, such as writ in Revelations re the Anti-Christ, then Jesus returns to finally sort the mess.
3: Neither 1 or 2 happen as they are fabrications designed to snare the minds of believers in order to control those minds to support fictitious belief systems which do more damage than good because they compel the believer to put hope in saviors rather than in themselves and each other.
If 3 then:
1: The multitudes who live outside the constraints of those beliefs will find ways in which to sort things out peaceably constructively and achieve the same thing as promised saviors are claimed by the believers as 'going to achieve' and life on Earth will be nurtured and peace will be the new normal.
2: The multitudes who live outside the constraints of those beliefs will not find ways in which to sort things out peaceably constructively and will not achieve the same thing as promised saviors are claimed by the believers as 'going to achieve' and life on Earth will be destroyed and war will continue to be the normal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
I suppose that the result would be a "My messiah is real and your messiah is bogus" standoff. In this hypothetical, are we to believe that the recent messianic claimant does something which beyond possible doubt establishes his or her messianic credentials? Or is it just Christian claims vs Jewish claims?
|
Essentially it is Christendom vs Judaic claims. So far and for hundreds of years these claims have been in popular circulation.
I do not know where Muslims stand on the subject of 'The Messiah' although I have little doubt a simple net search could enlighten me on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Go read what's expected from the Jewish Moshiach...
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
Is there a singular, official expectation?
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Pretty much...He is to bring peace, govern the world, everybody becomes vegetarian, everyone recognizes HaShem as the one true G-d...Everyone recognizes the Torah as G-d's instruction for life...
|
That so obviously sounds like exactly what one would expect from a Judaist belief set bias. It is highly unlikely to be able to be made so without the use of deadly force and certainly the Christendom perspective (that this personality will be the Anti-Christ) will be hard to overcome through the persuasion of words alone. I suspect that the Muslims will be even harder to persuade...
The huge numbers in the secular world likely won't want a bar of it...so...unless the times are truly desperate, I do not see how such things can be accomplished and certainly not without marshal law.
It is my 'hope' that human beings will find their own way without the need for such imagined intervention. I can see few greater reasons for glorifying the idea of G()D than to have a species be able to work out their own salvation without the need for saviors to intervene and 'make it so'. To have to have saviors to accomplish for us what we can do for ourselves in my minds understanding, makes that species fundamentally flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
I can put a lot of links about this in the thread if people want to read them,
and of course its in books and goes back to antiquity.
Even the so-called Star of David wasn't David's at all but is Satanic in origin.
It could be the Mark of the Beast.
I'm not saying devout Torah-believing Jews want the Antichrist to be their Messiah,
nor that all Jews will accept him to be, but that the most powerful will.. those who
make the decisions of state and business.. and lest anyone thing I'm singling out
Jews, no, because many Christians will be deceived by the Antichrist also !
|
You are too steeped in your particular bias regarding 'satanism' and both the five and six pointed 'stars' are evident in nature so unless you want to call nature a product of 'Satan' (in which case your argument is of no use to the thread topic) then I suggest you make a serious effort to question your beliefs and examine them from a position outside the influence of said beliefs.
The real question of the thread has to do with IF the Jewish messiah actually becomes a real and prominent and Ultimate Central Player in the affairs of humankind, WILL the Christians see this personality as the promised deceiver (Anti-Christ) and the answer is likely YES.
One question worth contemplating is "Was the story of the Anti-Christ concocted as a way of counteracting the influence of the story of the Jewish messiah and causing confusion and enmity between Christian and Judaist in order that together they would not be able to compile data and cooperate to overthrow the Ruling Influences?"
[Both Secular and non Secular Ruling Influences.]
The answer would of course have to be "Yes!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The one thing in the spiritual fossil record that seems to be consistent across cultures and generations supposedly based on the inspirations received from God .. . . is that there IS someone who will embody what God wants from us. The problem is that we are frequently wrong in interpreting who and what that is. My odyssey of investigation began with a clean slate . . . motivated by encountering an unmistakably loving and accepting consciousness in deep meditation. I extensively evaluated the myriad candidates in the spiritual fossil record and chose Christ as the best match to that consciousness. That does not mean the Christian religion that grew up around Him . . . nor does it mean the Jewish religion from which He emanated. For ME . . . the many religious beliefs ABOUT the Christ are NOT controlling . . . the attributes of the consciousness I encounter ARE. Those attributes are embodied in the description of the Spirit of agape love.
|
Please correct me if I have failed to understand you here...are you saying that the attributes you encountered and think of as 'Christ' are attributes which are
controlling? IOW they force themselves onto the individual?
Please clarify...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
I doubt that you can come up with links that can't be dismantled...So, why don't you do some serious research of actual books...Because the characteristics/descriptions of Moshiach that we Jews await was transmitted to Israel by the Nevi'im from HaShem...So, you are stating that G-d told His chosen people to be awaiting a messiah that is actually the Anti-Christ?...You do know that Christ is the Greek word for Moshiach and means "anointed one"?...
Oh, I would love to see you prove this one...You are calling G-d's chosen to be that of Satan and that is blasphemy of the HS....And G-d promised that "those who curse you, I will curse and those who bless you I will also bless"...
But that is exactly what you are implying, that the Jewish Messiah is the coming Anti-Messiah...how in the world do you come to this conclusion?...
|
In order to understand this better you would have to do what you ask others to (regarding Judaism) and study the beliefs of the others.
From what I have gathered you are not ignorant of Christendoms belief systems so the question you ask (as the thread title) and the accompanying OP and post comments surprise me because it should be blatantly obvious to you that Christendom is not favorably inclined toward Judaism and thus a story of the return of Jesus (as the messiah) AND the concept of an Anti-Christ are attempts by Christendom (all those hundreds of years ago) to create further schism between the two belief systems.
There can be no doubt that the Jewish messiah and the Anti-Christ are the same individual seen differently depending upon the nature (of the bias) of who's eyes are seeing and who's mind is understanding such concepts the way that they will have to...
...It cannot be that Judaism has never been able to SEE this as the case. You (as a Jew) are asking (in the thread title) something of a rhetorical question which needs no answer because the answer is YES already.
So from your perspective, in asking such a question, it is for the purpose of bringing this into the open in order that Christians (and others) might see that they have been deceived. Gosh darned if that is not the agenda of all three of these related organised religions...to educate the other two (and whoever else is listening) as to the errors of their ways.
Each one sees 'the devil' in the other two but not in their own. Funny that...But not hilariously so.
*Chuckles*
Except that Jews do not believe the devil exists so therefore..."G()D"... G()D is doing all this...
AS for me...what I would ask HaShem to consider is allowing things to play out without the intervention of messiahs etc and see how humans do.
My understanding is that even if but a small portion of the overall human population succeed in maintaining a serious foot-hold in this universe (
see more on that in this post) then "G()D" has not failed in Its Creation of Human Beings and is thus justified in having creatied them.
Otherwise.
*FAIL*
Too much focus has been placed in the concept of
saviors and I for one am unconvinced that using such is helpful in reaching the conclusion that creating humans was worthwhile IF inevitably they require 'saving'.
The only 'other way' this could come about with the Jewish Messiah still at the helm, is for him to do so incognito and pull strings and use his influence while remaining firmly hidden from the Media of Humanity and thus help bring about the changes necessary in relation to helping save humanity from itself by allowing humanity to think that they are working it out for themselves...while also avoiding altogether having to be mis-proclaimed as the Anti-Christ.
(That is worth one of these >
)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
