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You have a weird idea of love if you attribute it to the evil deity!
I believe you misread, or misconstrued what I said. I attributed Love to God and God alone. Satan rejected God's Love of his own free will. There is no Love in Satan, as I stated in my prior post.
Not so. If you, as a father, raise your kid teaching Him not to steal, and one day he gets caught in a bank heist and is thrown into prison, does that reflect on you as his father? Unless you remove the kid's freedom of will, you will never control his actions; you can only advise him/her to stay on the right path.
Free will is the key that is missing in your argument. It is the greatest gift that God gave to all His creation. God desires Love, for God is Love, but true love can only exist with free will. It must be given freely, otherwise its not love, but programmed obedience, and thus has no meaning or joy. God only creates things good, but gives them free will. God always instructs His creation to stay on the path of good and righteousness, and in Love. If Satan chose to disobey, it does not reflect at all on God's goodness, unless you also have a problem with free will, and thus Love.
Once again, God is Love, and love must be given freely to have any meaning. God created His creatures good always, but with free will, so that the Love He could receive from them is pure and of our own volition.
Nonsense. All the above does is affirm my point. You are compartmentalizing two functions of the same entity and postulating two free wills when actually there would only be one in operation to cover both identities. Your above response fails to address my main point, that any devil created by the god, could only be subordinate to that god and only have whatever powers and free will that god decided to grant to it.
You are trying to fragment a singular entity into a love personality and an evil personality while holding the entity responsible for only the love personality.
This is very much akin to the dynamics involved in the frequently seen debate over thanking god selectively. God is assigned credit for saving someone's life in an automobile accident, but is excused from responsibility for permitting the accident to happen.
You cannot have it both ways. If you respond to this post, please address the logical contradictions I have identified, another "God is love" ungrounded assertion like the above would be pointless.
the purpose of the existence of evil is for us to choose good
we live in a free will construct
yes it all comes from god, but the dross exists so that we can discard it and choose the gold
cigarettes exist so that we can choose NOT to smoke, and be healthier and have a higher quality of life
when humans stop choosing the bad or harmful option, it disappears
if no one bought cigarettes, the companies would go out of business and cigarettes would cease to exist
so "satan" is employed by god, and wants us to choose goodness and love and make wise choices
The above fails to address my main point. Anything that the devil does can only be with the permission, and thus, approval, of that god. In effect, god and the devil are but multiple expressions of a single will.
If that is not correct, then provide for an example of the devil doing something, anything, which the god disapproves and ordered the devil not to do. Name anything that the devil could do if the devil was opposed by god who did not wish it done.
In effect, god and the devil are but multiple expressions of a single will.
that is correct; god is pure love and goodness, and the single will is for us to evolve and grow into our best selves, and also express as pure loving kindness. anything that appears otherwise ("evil" or "wicked" or "temptations") exists for the purpose of:
1. choosing "good" over "evil" such as make good choices, choose love and kindness instead of hate and violence; since we chose to incarnate in a free will zone
2. for us to recognize that god is in everything, to "see through" the disguise
god "disguises" himself as disturbing situations; once we know that it is god in disguise, that god is only goodness and loving kindness, there is no longer any concealment; the world for us becomes win-win, instead of good-evil; in god there is no duality.
we are still responsible though for the consequences of our thought, speech, and action, we don't get to "blame god" for our own bad choices; rob a bank yes you go to jail. our thought speech and action can do great good or great harm, god wants us to do great good and avoid doing harm altogether, but we choose and are responsible for our choices.
let's say one of the traits we are to develop is "honesty" let's say just like in school to demonstrate mastery in anything we have to pass a test. the test is for us to demonstrate our mastery in acquiring the skill. we want to pass, to get our degree. the university wants us to pass, because it's goal is to give us good skills and it wants us to succeed. let's say the test for honesty is to work for a company and have the opportunity to embezzle $225,000 and not get caught. A wicked co-worker offers this scheme to you, even blackmails you into participating so that you don't turn him in. God "sets up" this temptation this wickedness not to get you to fail, but for you to demonstrate your mastery in honesty, to grow into your better self.
when in the midst of a "difficult situation" (god concealed) I have the choice of ranting at god, claiming life is unfair, blaming others, hating others, or asking "what does this situation ask of me? who am i asked to be or become in this situation?"
but you are correct, everything that exists is either god in a "revealed" or "concealed" form and the single will is that we ourselves express as pure loving kindness and thus evolve into a higher state of being; in doing so we also get to enjoy a greater quality of life on the physical plane that includes peace of mind and inner peace and an unbounded loving kindness towards others. god is already pure loving kindness; we are growing into our best selves and becoming that also.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-05-2015 at 12:52 PM..
but you are correct, everything that exists is either god in a "revealed" or "concealed" form and the single will.
If you agree that I am correct with this, then obviously you are drawing the wrong conclusions. It makes no sense to worship a loving, giving god if that same entity is also responsible for all the misery which comes your way. Such a god does not love you, it is treating you as an experiment.
Would you experiment on your children like this? No? Then why worship a god who is less moral than you?
If you agree that I am correct with this, then obviously you are drawing the wrong conclusions. It makes no sense to worship a loving, giving god if that same entity is also responsible for all the misery which comes your way. Such a god does not love you, it is treating you as an experiment.
Would you experiment on your children like this? No? Then why worship a god who is less moral than you?
but it is not misery
god only sends me blessings, either in a revealed form, or in a concealed form
god only and ever and always has my best interests at heart, and is pure loving kindness, and can be relied upon to offer boundless support, assistance, love, resources, comfort, and solutions to whatever happens to be in my world; as i said before it is win-win
a loving parent is a good example; i give my children guidelines for healthy living and i hope they make wise choices. but they also know if they make bad choices they are responsible for the consequences. if they choose to drive drunk, they go to jail. they are learning to be responsible for making wise choices. my love is a constant regardless of what they are going through. my desire for them though is a life filled with kindness, peace, harmony, beauty, love. but I can't do it for them. they have to participate in the process and develop good character traits, and make wise choices and decline to engage in negative behavior. as we grow into our best selves, the quality of our life improves. if we resist improving ourselves, well, it's a bumpy ride.
i don't get the whole "experiment" thing so am unable to comment on that. "experiment" sounds like a detached intellectual exercise. whereas loving a child, being loved by god, those are a heart-centered relationship, not a cold and sterile science experiment.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 07-05-2015 at 01:25 PM..
but it is not misery
god only sends me blessings, either in a revealed form, or in a concealed form
god only and ever and always has my best interests at heart, and is pure loving kindness, and can be relied upon to offer boundless support, assistance, love, resources, comfort, and solutions to whatever happens to be in my world; as i said before it is win-win
a loving parent is a good example; i give my children guidelines for healthy living and i hope they make wise choices. but they also know if they make bad choices they are responsible for the consequences. if they choose to drive drunk, they go to jail. they are learning to be responsible for making wise choices. my love is a constant regardless of what they are going through. my desire for them though is a life filled with kindness, peace, harmony, beauty, love. but I can't do it for them. they have to participate in the process and develop good character traits, and make wise choices and decline to engage in negative behavior. as we grow into our best selves, the quality of our life improves. if we resist improving ourselves, well, it's a bumpy ride.
i don't get the whole "experiment" thing so am unable to comment on that. "experiment" sounds like a detached intellectual exercise. whereas loving a child, being loved by god, those are a heart-centered relationship, not a cold and sterile science experiment.
You are what might be considered a brainwasher's delight, the sort who worships his or her jailer because the jailer provides food each day, but fails to blame the jailer for the incarceration.
You are ignoring the contradictions I pointed out in order to sustain this god=good fantasy. There are others here far more patient than I am who might be interested in exchanging serial posts with you in the hopes that you would finally grasp what is being said to you. Perhaps one of them will become engaged here, but I'm the sort who explains, and if the person still doesn't get it, I cease throwing good logic after bad.
Nonsense. All the above does is affirm my point. You are compartmentalizing two functions of the same entity and postulating two free wills when actually there would only be one in operation to cover both identities. Your above response fails to address my main point, that any devil created by the god, could only be subordinate to that god and only have whatever powers and free will that god decided to grant to it.
I think I see where you are confused. You are essentially denying that Satan has free will, and attempting to attribute all the evil he does to God, because God created him and granted him all his powers.
Quote:
You are trying to fragment a singular entity into a love personality and an evil personality while holding the entity responsible for only the love personality.
Again I see your misconception - you still assume God and Satan to be a singular entity. They are not. God is separate from Satan. Satan is His creation. Is a parent the same entity as his child? Is a computer programmer the same entity as his program?
Quote:
You cannot have it both ways. If you respond to this post, please address the logical contradictions I have identified, another "God is love" ungrounded assertion like the above would be pointless.
I have addressed them. God and Satan are not the same entity. Satan is his creation, and has free will. I already addressed this in the post that you quoted. Just as a father and his child are separate entities, so are God and his creations. If the child disobeys the father and spreads evil, that does not reflect on the father.
Everything I said in my original post still stands. I understand your disagreement, but it is a false one. God is above His creation, not a part of it. His creation has free will to choose whether to follow the loving God, or to rebel. And indeed, we all have free will and are all His creation, and all have the same choice.
All this is in the Bible. God is above and Almighty, separate from His creation. He gives us powers and free will, but if we chose to do evil with what He gives us, it does not reflect upon Him at all, especially when He always tells us to do good.
You are what might be considered a brainwasher's delight, the sort who worships his or her jailer because the jailer provides food each day, but fails to blame the jailer for the incarceration.
Even here, your example is incomplete. If the person is incarcerated, He did something against the laws set by the jailer. We assume of course, that one is only jailed because one broke the law. Does the person, breaking the law, and being thrown into jail, have any reflection whatsoever on the jailer, or the person who broke the law?
You keep trying to blame the person breaking the law on the person who wrote the law. Or in the context of this topic, you are blaming God for the evils of His creation, when God tells them specifically not to do evil. You are attributing evil to God in a way that one would attribute a crime to the police man who caught the perpetrator. That is your contradiction friend.
You cannot blame the cop for the perpetrators crime, likewise, you cannot blame God if His creations chose to do evil when told to do good.
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