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This is a matter of size and the limitations of the human eye. With the invention of electron microscopes scientists can observe molecules.
I have never seen a molecule, but accept their existence from credible sources: scientists. Scientific discoveries do not deal with the supernatural.
Also, the ability to see molecules does not favor any political group, religion or myth, it is a scientific fact that molecules exist.
Centuries ago people believed that diseases were caused by evil demons, but scientific research discovered that diseases are caused by viruses.
If god wanted his existence to be known, why does he make it so very difficult?
To put it anothere way, while driving I was having problems with my car as it was not stopping all the way. I took it to a priest who told me it was filled with evil spirits and I need more religion in my life. I then took it to a mechanic, he ran some diagnostic tests of the car and took certain parts apart. Then he found that the break pads were worn down and I needed more break fluid. While driving I couldn’t see the break fluid or the break pads, but a mechanic broke down the problem to find natural solutions. The reality was the mechanic was right. I never did get the increase in religion in my life but my car works because of the mechanic. Of course the priest said it was because he told the evil spirits to leave through prayer and I didn’t prove anything.
Scientific discoveries do not deal with the supernatural.
i would beg to differ. one of the primary reasons that some of our most famous scientists have been so zealous of their art was to find the secrets behind the supernatural.
as you just said, diseases, as an example, were attributed to evil spirits, bad karma, divine curses, etc.
science has discovered that it is merely a bug, in the form of bacteria, virus, etc.
i think the problem is that too many people see an 'either-or' scenario, where it is either God, or science. it does not even cross their minds that it could be both, or if it does, it seems heretical to some of them.
how do you, vis, feel about the fact that some of the greatest scientific minds that our world has produced were actively looking for God? how do you feel about those who set about scientifically trying to disprove God's existence, and instead became believers? how do you feel about the common man who can and does analytically think and study his own life, comes up with rational, non-brainwashed solutions, and yet still believes in a Maker?
i ask these questions because in more than one post you have criticized "all" believers of being ignorant and unthinking, and have so far ignored any ideas that there are actually quite intelligent people out there who believe in God, in whatever form they might see Him.
it is a logical fallacy, either a guilt-by-association fallacy, and/or a hasty-generalization, both of which are generally ruled by strong emotion, and are therefore (as a fallacy) inaccurate and untrustworthy.
now, my whole point in this is to see if we can find a common ground to work off of and return this to an enlightening conversation. it is much better to see similarities, and work through differences, than it is to only see differences from the get-go.
This is a matter of size and the limitations of the human eye. With the invention of electron microscopes scientists can observe molecules.
I have never seen a molecule, but accept their existence from credible sources: scientists. Scientific discoveries do not deal with the supernatural.
Also, the ability to see molecules does not favor any political group, religion or myth, it is a scientific fact that molecules exist.
Centuries ago people believed that diseases were caused by evil demons, but scientific research discovered that diseases are caused by viruses.
If god wanted his existence to be known, why does he make it so very difficult?
now that i have brought up logical fallacies, i ought to return to my earlier comment that too many people see an either-or, and that i see it as both.
i suppose that some could say that i am using the 'middle gound' fallacy. who knows, they might be right. but the way i see it, God created the world. God created the physical laws that govern our existence. He created the laws of motion, the occurance of relativity, the idea of gravity, electromagnetism, laws of attraction, etc. so i do not think, especially after having thought about it and studied it out quite extensively, that in this case the middle ground is an ignorant fallacy.
i think the problem is that too many people see an 'either-or' scenario, where it is either God, or science. it does not even cross their minds that it could be both, or if it does, it seems heretical to some of them.
Science is the search for natural explanations for natural phenomena. If a natural explanation is not found, it is then give a couple of natural hypotheses to possibly explain. All science is based on the fact that each theory can possibly be disproven as further evidence can be found or advancements in technology can assist in the discoveries. Science does not attibute anything to the supernatural because it cannot be disproven.
If I said my house burned because of the combination of fuel, wood, oxygen, and a spark, and then explained to you the fire triangle. That is a natural explanation. However if you say it burned because an invisible hand from an invisible agent that cannot be seen but only “felt” spiriturally wanted my house to burn, that cannot be proven except if you accept supernatural explanations. Which science does not do.
If god wanted his existence to be known, why does he make it so very difficult?
that there, is a great question, and that begins one of the major divisions among theological views.
apathy?
mystery?
malice?
secret plan?
lack of existence in the first place?
there are many ideas, none of which can be proven. i can arue my point into the dirt and it will not convince anyone. and if it does in and of itself convince someone, then they weren't doing their homework. they weren't using that brain that so miraculously has been given us. it has to be more than a persuasion. even if just for the fact that it cannot be proven either way, belief or rejection of a higher being should be more than just an instance of 'well, he sold me.' it should be a moral choice, an epiphany, or moment of enlightenment, and yes i suppose it is possible for that moment to occur while one is listening to the argument of another, but it still should be thought out critically and personally.
btw, thanks for you patience with my soapbox preaching. i just hate seeing division among people that we would probably get along with quite well on the street, but behind the anonymity of the net we feel justified in resenting or belittling.
No matter how much man tries to twist the truth, I know God created mankind, but like some said here, man throughout the ages, with possibly the help of the evil one, has twisted God's truth to dispell the beliefs of creation and cause animosity and division among mankind.
Science is the search for natural explanations for natural phenomena. If a natural explanation is not found, it is then give a couple of natural hypotheses to possibly explain. All science is based on the fact that each theory can possibly be disproven as further evidence can be found or advancements in technology can assist in the discoveries. Science does not attibute anything to the supernatural because it cannot be disproven.
If I said my house burned because of the combination of fuel, wood, oxygen, and a spark, and then explained to you the fire triangle. That is a natural explanation. However if you say it burned because an invisible hand from an invisible agent that cannot be seen but only “felt” spiriturally wanted my house to burn, that cannot be proven except if you accept supernatural explanations. Which science does not do.
exactly! that is my point. i was not trying to imply that there is supernatural out there. i was implying that science is used to find the natural behind the supernatural. that something we do not understand scientifically could be called, albeit lamely, supernatural. something that was misunderstood, and now is understood, becomes natural to us.
we seek to find the existence of God. until then, we cannot definitively prove His existence either way. some might call that supernatural. whatever. semantics.
lightning was considered supernatural for who knows how long. now we know it to be the released buildup of electrons. nothing to it. things that were miraculous in the time of Christ are nowadays easily explained or corrected by twenty-minute operations, over-the-counter drugs, simple machines, etc.
what doe sthat prove? that the unknown can become known. but we cannot decide--without great error--that just because the knowledge does not come in our lifetime, it cannot exist, and that anyone who believes in it must be retarded. if i remember right, black holes were theorized for *quite* a while before evidence of them was actually found, and even longer until their effects could be definitively proven. it would have been ignorant of us to decide that because we are so advanced, if we cannot see them, they don't exist.
No matter how much man tries to twist the truth, I know God created mankind, but like some said here, man throughout the ages, with possibly the help of the evil one, has twisted God's truth to dispell the beliefs of creation and cause animosity and division among mankind.
It's rarely (if ever) the lack of belief in a deity that causes animosity and division among mankind. Rather, I'd say it's far more often the opposite.
Stycotl--something I have never understood-You use the example of Moses and the Israelites [Jews].Christians read the Torah [The Bibles Old Testament} but yet you claim The Jews are hell bound because they dont Think Jesus is The Messiah. You use Jewish writings in your worship, but condemn them to hell for believing in those writings. Whats up with that? Just curious.
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