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One can be perfectly proficient, competent and logical in a computer science field, and never choose to apply those same critical thinking skills to one's faith. It happens all the time. Heck, Isaac Newton wrote more on the Book of Revelations and alchemy than on what we would call "science". But that's besides the point. The point is that not everyone uses their critical thinking skills and applies them to every facet of their lives.
I think the smug person here is the one who declares that his coworker has "huge character flaws" and then loudly tells him that he must be a scientific idiot and then admits that he doesn't care that he offended him. I mean... JESUS. You could have had a dialogue with this person, but now you just look like a typical angry dismissive "New Atheist" - and that's not going to accomplish anything.
At some point, especially with a YEC, further dialogue isn't going to accomplish anything. Does it make sense to try to reason with a psychic or a crystal healer? The mention of Isaac Newton brings up an interesting thought; Is it possible for one individual to have two minds, one sane and the other quite mad? When otherwise intelligent people pray to God for their football team's success I think it must be. Same with any educated person who believes in a 6000 year old universe.
science and nature and physics and quantum mechanics are also from God
it is just that if a person limits themself to just that, their world is .....very limited.
and if a person truly seeks to expand and grow and learn (i.e. not stagnate) then at some point they deal with the rest of the vast Universe that is "more" than just the tiny box of science. There are additional subjects in the curriculum for the person who wants to advance.
if not this lifetime, then another, your soul has all of eternity and is patiently waiting for you
"Expand and grow and learn?"
Learn what? About your invisible friends in the sky? That the Creator of the universe really cares about you and likes you? Please.
You blithely toss-off these grandiloquent quotes about science being limited and there being some sort of Divine purpose or creator of the Universe. As if YOUR groundless view somehow equates a higher knowledge. Some special insight that is poor, limited, men of science are not privy too.
Fact is: your views are without a shred, an iota of proof. Or even any subtle hints that they your gods exist. I can make up anything too. Like you're limited because you cannot see and know about the Magic Invisible fire Breathing Dragon living in my garage. Carl Sagan invented this metaphor, so as to show the impossibility of falsifying some non-existent beings. No matter how ludicrous or absurd--like your personal Creator--they are.
At some point, especially with a YEC, further dialogue isn't going to accomplish anything.
I suppose that depends on why you are having a dialogue. If it is for the sole purpose of furthering your own agenda via a diatribe, then there is no dialogue. A dialogue consists of people speaking and having "an exchange of ideas or opinions on a particular issue, especially a political or religious issue, with a view to reaching an amicable agreement or settlement" (Wik.). The key word "amicable" ("having a spirit of friendliness; without serious disagreement or rancor.") is not present in Southpaw's description of the events, and is pretty exemplary of how many "new Atheists" approach their agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1insider
Does it make sense to try to reason with a psychic or a crystal healer?
I entirely agree with you and I try to keep my dealings with Fundamentalists very sparse. I am not interested in the slightest, anymore, in "reforming" Fundamentalists or destroying their faith. It is pointless to a large degree, especially if they are too entrenched in anti-critical thinking apologetics. The method I have adopted in the past, and still do sometimes, is the same adopted by Hector Avalos in a recent debate: since they are open to the idea of sola scriptura, I hold them to it but with - a better understanding of the text of the Bible, a focus on the languages they were written in, examining the scientific sources the YEC quotes (well, I leave that to scientists, but I do know how to research scientific journal articles cited if need be, and a simple argument. The best debate I have seen against a YEC:
It's long, but worth watching for a very effective method of debate. Did it change the YEC's mind? No, and very little anyone does will do so after a certain age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1insider
The mention of Isaac Newton brings up an interesting thought; Is it possible for one individual to have two minds, one sane and the other quite mad? When otherwise intelligent people pray to God for their football team's success I think it must be. Same with any educated person who believes in a 6000 year old universe.
Hmm. I think I've already answered this to some degree. One may specialize in a certain scientific field of study and never use the same "critical thinking" skills applicable to their field on their own faith (if they even learned how to apply them to another "discipline" from their studies) - not everyone is able or willing to do so with their own faith to begin with. I find it difficult to believe that someone cannot be competent enough to diagnose engine problems if they happen to believe in God. Entirely different things.
As for labelling the non-scientific faith belief as "mad" - I dunno about that. That's pretty subjective. Sure, you and I may see it as such when subjected to critical analysis but that is because we have done the analysis. They have not, and see my above comment on whether they are able or willing to do so. Now, Newton was a whole nother story though! He investigated science because he believed he was learning how God's creation worked. His studies in Revelation did get crazy, but again - his world view found no incompatibility between the two, for whatever reason. Alchemy? Yeh.. it was a quite common scientific venture, but still nuts to us. His case is a very interesting one. I do think he was a bit... mad.
I do know plenty of Christians who have no trouble whatsoever in being both scientific and faithful, while also being extremely critical of the veracity of say, the Bible. This is normal. Young Earthers are not normal by comparison, but there are so many different types of Faith it is difficult to label all of the scientific faithful as "mad", in my opinion.
I suppose that depends on why you are having a dialogue. If it is for the sole purpose of furthering your own agenda via a diatribe, then there is no dialogue. A dialogue consists of people speaking and having "an exchange of ideas or opinions on a particular issue, especially a political or religious issue, with a view to reaching an amicable agreement or settlement" (Wik.). The key word "amicable" ("having a spirit of friendliness; without serious disagreement or rancor.") is not present in Southpaw's description of the events, and is pretty exemplary of how many "new Atheists" approach their agenda.
Thanks for the excellent response. The dialogue we were talking about was initiated by a young-earth coworker of the poster and he had to make a decision to either state his belief or lie to maintain the peace. He had no agenda. I often bite my tongue around my more extreme believer friends rather than vocalize what I really think but sometimes keeping quiet is impossible.
My belief is this Superior Being is ever-expanding.
Tell the Supreme Being to lay off the Supreme Pizza for awhile.
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You could have had a dialogue with this person, but now you just look like a typical angry dismissive "New Atheist" - and that's not going to accomplish anything.
