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Originally Posted by Eusebius
God didn't create Satan perfect in the sense of being sinless. God created Satan to be a liar and murderer perfectly for a good reason: that good would come from that evil.
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Originally Posted by 303Guy
Six million victims of the holocaust would disagree. I disagree. But if you are right then that would be a pretty barbaric part of God's plan. But I don't accept that it was part of any 'plan'. Some evil dude got into a position to commit evil deeds. And he wasn't the only one in that period. Stalin was no angel either.
It is not barbaric when you realize we all are going to die sooner or later anyway. In spite of what many think, we are not in total control of our lives. And those six million victims had to learn a valuable lesson about good and evil they could not otherwise learn. None of them, in the resurrection, are going to declare God is unjust in His dealings with them or anyone. So why do you?
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303Guy: God didn't create the universe, the sun or earth let alone life on earth. God didn't 'write' the bible, men did. Men who lived in barbaric times and lived barbaric lives. Men who would sacrifice their own sons to their god.
Actualy, God did create the heavens and earth and all that is in them. You can't blame fallible humans who went away from the One True God on their actions as if those actions prove the truths of the Bible are false.
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303Guy: But since the question of barbarism in the bible was a general one, we should also look at the new testament. How barbaric is the crucifixion of the two robbers/murders and Christ himself. How barbaric is allowing one's own son to be crucified! This by a supposedly omnipotent god who now needs to commit this atrocity for the 'good of all mankind'!
See what I mean? You only look at the sacrifice and fail to see what will come out of that sacrifice. Christ is at the right hand of God as I write this. He is not blaming God for sacrificing him. In fact He looked to the joy that would come after the cross:
Heb_12:2 looking off to the Inaugurator and Perfecter of faith, Jesus, Who,
for the joy lying before Him, endures a cross, despising the shame, besides
is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."
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303Guy: Did it prevent the holocaust? Or the Spanish inquisition? Or the burning of 'witches' or the persecution of the Christians by the Romans. I mention the holocaust not because it was committed in the name of the bible but because it was committed against God's chosen people.
Was it supposed to? Please supply book, chapter and verse. Eventually all evil will be gone from God's universe when it has done its work and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:28) and then all will walk in perfect love.
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303Guy: By the way, I had a quick look at what other flood myths actually say and I found that the boat and animals and seeds and two humans theme seems to be global. Very interesting!
It should be since after the flood and after the nations split after the tower of Babel, they carried the historic world-wide flood history with them.
As the six million Jews are not believers in Jesus Christ I would think they would not be going to heaven according to many Christains so should they be happy to die the way they did just to go to Hell? What lesson does a person learn while starving to death, seeing their love ones slaughtered, their children die a slow painful death? Are those really good lessons to learn? If you are a Jew you can be a victim of genocide is the lesson your God had to teach the Jews of Europe because they did not know that one? Or do you beleive that God was trying to show them the errors of their way by not being Christian?
I really do not understand how you can make a proclaimation like you did about not one of them would not say that God was not just. You know that they were not all religious don't you. There is an excelleant play that was on TV a few years back named God on Trial that was set in a concentration camp and was a discussion among the captives of that camp. They put God on trail and both sides got the opportunity to argue the case for and against God under the conditions of a German concentration camp. I suggest you watch it. I do not remember there being a verdict. I have a copy of it I should watch again. It was a powerful show highlighting the thoughts that went through the minds of these victims. Much more believalbe than your declaration that it was just and that all the victims would agree it was just.
It is not barbaric when you realize we all are going to die sooner or later anyway. In spite of what many think, we are not in total control of our lives. And those six million victims had to learn a valuable lesson about good and evil they could not otherwise learn. None of them, in the resurrection, are going to declare God is unjust in His dealings with them or anyone. So why do you?
Really Eusebius? Murdering millions is not barbaric? What kind of bubble do you live in? That is quite possibly one of the craziest things I've seen on this board, and that is saying something. So is it cool if someone murders your family today then? Tortures them and starves them to death over months? I mean, they are going to die anyways right? Why not learn a lesson from it, right? Is that okay with you? I mean, you think it is perfectly fine when it is 6 million Jews, but what about your own family Eusebius? You would be perfectly fine with them being tortured to death, so they can learn a lesson?
As the six million Jews are not believers in Jesus Christ I would think they would not be going to heaven according to many Christains so should they be happy to die the way they did just to go to Hell? What lesson does a person learn while starving to death, seeing their love ones slaughtered, their children die a slow painful death? Are those really good lessons to learn? If you are a Jew you can be a victim of genocide is the lesson your God had to teach the Jews of Europe because they did not know that one? Or do you beleive that God was trying to show them the errors of their way by not being Christian?
Hello badlander,
I always appreciate your thoughts on many given subjects even if we don't always agree. It is nice to see your well thought-out posts. Anyway . . . you may be correct they were not believers in Jesus Christ. Of course we can't paint with such a broad brush that all of them were not believers. But that being the case, even if all of them were not, Christ still died for their sins and He did foretell the glorious outcome of His death and resurrection when He stated "And I, if I be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself." Since the first part of that prophetic statement came to pass, the latter part must surely as well. All their sins have been died for. Christ ransomed all mankind including you and me. We have all been ransomed (please see 1 Timothy 2:4-6). One who has been ransomed must be freed from slavery to sin and death. Eventually God will save all mankind as He has promised in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 because of Christ's obedience to the cross. He will undo all we get from Adam per Romans 5:18,19 due to His one act.
Having suffered under the evil of the Nazis, I don't think anyone would be happy to die, though some Christians were. But yes, the lessons they learned could not be learned any other way. They were invaluable. Their good they enjoyed in their life and their suffering they endured is but a brief second in time when looked at it from the aspect of eternity.
God was not upset with them for their unbelief. 2000 years ago He conciliated the world to Himself and has not been reckoning anyone's offenses to them. Please see 2 Corinthians 5:19.
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I really do not understand how you can make a proclaimation like you did about not one of them would not say that God was not just. You know that they were not all religious don't you. There is an excelleant play that was on TV a few years back named God on Trial that was set in a concentration camp and was a discussion among the captives of that camp. They put God on trail and both sides got the opportunity to argue the case for and against God under the conditions of a German concentration camp. I suggest you watch it. I do not remember there being a verdict. I have a copy of it I should watch again. It was a powerful show highlighting the thoughts that went through the minds of these victims. Much more believalbe than your declaration that it was just and that all the victims would agree it was just.
It does not matter if any of those Jews were unreligious. They, in their resurrection, will see their Saviour and all He did for them and will acclaim Him Lord and bow in His name to the glory of God, the Father (please see Philippians 2:8-11).
Though the victims of the concentration camps may not have seen God's justness in it all, they surely will when they see all the good that comes out of the evil they suffered. And in fact, they will all be at peace with their tormentors in that far off day for being instruments to bring them into their better understanding of good and evil with good being the end result.
For instance, take Joseph in the Old Testament. He suffered due to his brothers. Yet his being sold to Egypt brought about their very salvation from starvation and was the then-known world's salvation from starvation. Joseph is a type of Christ. Christ too was sold and suffered and was raised out of His figurative jail of death to be the Saviour of the whole world. So, again, all the evil will eventuate in GOOD.
Originally Posted by Eusebius It is not barbaric when you realize we all are going to die sooner or later anyway. In spite of what many think, we are not in total control of our lives. And those six million victims had to learn a valuable lesson about good and evil they could not otherwise learn. None of them, in the resurrection, are going to declare God is unjust in His dealings with them or anyone. So why do you?
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Originally Posted by southernbored
Really Eusebius? Murdering millions is not barbaric? What kind of bubble do you live in? That is quite possibly one of the craziest things I've seen on this board, and that is saying something. So is it cool if someone murders your family today then? Tortures them and starves them to death over months? I mean, they are going to die anyways right? Why not learn a lesson from it, right? Is that okay with you? I mean, you think it is perfectly fine when it is 6 million Jews, but what about your own family Eusebius? You would be perfectly fine with them being tortured to death, so they can learn a lesson?
I have thought about the above scenarios you've brought up. Of course it would sadden me if my family were murdered or tortured and starved. But I would know that God is working all together for good and that would take much of the sting out of it.
We are just passing through this brief existence and experience both the good and the evil. It seems strange to me that often the naysayers only concentrate on the evil but not the good which surely will come from all the evil humanity experiences.
What anyone suffers, though it seems to us like a long time, is really only a very brief speck in time when compared to eternity and all the manifold blessings God has in store for all of mankind.
Humanly speaking, I don't think any murder or torture or starvation is fine and would do what I could to stop such things. But in the grander picture, I realize we must all learn from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL. It is something God, in His grande wisdom, has determined is necessary for humanity.
See what I mean? You only look at the sacrifice and fail to see what will come out of that sacrifice. Christ is at the right hand of God as I write this. He is not blaming God for sacrificing him. In fact He looked to the joy that would come after the cross:
.
Might have been just a wee bit easier for the million Jews and just a wee bit more difficult for Jesus if the length of time they suffered was reversed...3 days as opposed to months and years.
I have thought about the above scenarios you've brought up. Of course it would sadden me if my family were murdered or tortured and starved. But I would know that God is working all together for good and that would take much of the sting out of it.
We are just passing through this brief existence and experience both the good and the evil. It seems strange to me that often the naysayers only concentrate on the evil but not the good which surely will come from all the evil humanity experiences.
What anyone suffers, though it seems to us like a long time, is really only a very brief speck in time when compared to eternity and all the manifold blessings God has in store for all of mankind.
Humanly speaking, I don't think any murder or torture or starvation is fine and would do what I could to stop such things. But in the grander picture, I realize we must all learn from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL. It is something God, in His grande wisdom, has determined is necessary for humanity.
Peace
Well, whatever makes you sleep at night.
Just explain this to me if you will. You honestly believe that it is perfectly fine if your god murders, or allows the murders, of 6 million people, in the most horrific way possible, just to teach them a lesson? It is okay because it is just life on Earth we are talking about, they have millennia to thank god for being tortured to death while he watched and did nothing. Do you even understand what you are saying? You are condoning the torture and murder of millions because, you know, God had to teach them a valuable lesson. Please tell me what that lesson is, and why it could not be taught any other way. Also, why do some people not need to be taught this lesson? Are they special? Are you and I special? Why was it necessary for millions of Jews, but not necessary for billions of others?
Might have been just a wee bit easier for the million Jews and just a wee bit more difficult for Jesus if the length of time they suffered was reversed...3 days as opposed to months and years.
But but but, those Jews had to be taught a lesson about evil...... I will never understand this kind of logic, but I applaud people like Eusie. You know why? They are turning people away from their church/religion in far greater numbers than I could.
So keep it up Eusie, the more people who see this kind of crazy thinking, the more non religious people we will see!
Might have been just a wee bit easier for the million Jews and just a wee bit more difficult for Jesus if the length of time they suffered was reversed...3 days as opposed to months and years.
Might have . . . could have . . .
Nonetheless, the outcome is glorious.
Just explain this to me if you will. You honestly believe that it is perfectly fine if your god murders, or allows the murders, of 6 million people, in the most horrific way possible, just to teach them a lesson? It is okay because it is just life on Earth we are talking about, they have millennia to thank god for being tortured to death while he watched and did nothing. Do you even understand what you are saying? You are condoning the torture and murder of millions because, you know, God had to teach them a valuable lesson. Please tell me what that lesson is, and why it could not be taught any other way. Also, why do some people not need to be taught this lesson? Are they special? Are you and I special? Why was it necessary for millions of Jews, but not necessary for billions of others?
I already said what the lesson is. Please re-read what I wrote in my last couple of responses to you and another person.
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