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"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Yep, and everything was accomplished when Christ bore our sins and died for us.
Try reading the NT for a change. Old Covenant laws don't apply anymore, and they only applied to the Israelities in the first place.
Wow. Fabulous news for homosexuals.
When do you stop telling everyone they are committing the worst of sins? You'll need a new hobby. I suggest writing a personal letter of apology to every member of the gay community for falsely claiming they are sinners. That will fill up the time you previously used to condemn them.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,925,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Yep, and everything was accomplished when Christ bore our sins and died for us.
"Until all things are accomplished" is also the subject of controversy. It is uncertain what all is referring to and how it will be accomplished. France lists three interpretations: until the end of the world, until all the requirements of the Law are met, until the arrival of the messiah. The three interpretations all imply very different understandings of how absolute Mosaic law is for Christians in the current era (see also antinomianism).[9
Can you not see, Jeff, that "all Christians are bad" isn't the point? The point is that a certain standard is in place for Christians, many Christians (not all) tell OTHERS to live by that standard (including people such as these rapists), then they themselves commit the atrocities they tell others not to commit. It's a matter of hypocrisy, not a matter of sterotyping "all" or "nobody" or whatever.
If an atheist stands there constantly yelling at random passersby in the street not to steal from the drugstore just because they shouldn't - no "religious" reason necessary - and then one day he's not on the street corner but rather, on the cover of the newspaper, having been taking in by the cops for stealing from that very drugstore, it would be the SAME thing.
But what takes this all one step farther is that the intimation is there - or, it's outright stated - that if one finds Christ, then one will be free of wanting to sin...yet stories like this one proves that isn't true. And before people make such a monumental decision, they really should know that...among other truths. To hide it, shove it under the rug, packpedal and claim the people were "never really Christians," claim it's "impossible" to sin if one really has a relationship with Jesus, etc. is dishonest and causes many, many people (IMO and IME) to feel VERY betrayed and to turn away from spirituality altogether. Pretending this autoperfection once one "has a 'real' relationship with Christ" is setting up person after person after person for feeling, in retrospect, that s/he has been tricked and fooled and therefore, Christianity is not only the religion of hypocrisy and impossible standards, it's also the religion of lying and trickery in the name of increasing numbers. You don't think this is a problem? I do.
Agreed.
If this wasn't a possibility, what need would there be for confession of sins?
"Until all things are accomplished" is also the subject of controversy. It is uncertain what all is referring to and how it will be accomplished. France lists three interpretations: until the end of the world, until all the requirements of the Law are met, until the arrival of the messiah. The three interpretations all imply very different understandings of how absolute Mosaic law is for Christians in the current era (see also antinomianism).[9
Mat 5:17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;
Mat 5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.
Mat 5:19 `Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands--the least--and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them , he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.
Mat 5:20 `For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.
What could he have possibly meant here?...
How do we know when the word “Commandment” or “Commandments” in the New Testament actually refers to the Biblical Ten Commandments? Does loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbour as yourself nullify the Ten Commandments? The Apostle John wrote that Jesus spoke of a “New Commandment.” What does John mean by this and does it change our obligation to observe the Ten Commandments? Does Jesus fulfilling the law bring an end to the law? All these questions will now be answered not by speculation or private interpretation, but by references from the Word of God.
Meaning of Jesus Fulfilling the Law
In Matthew 5:17, Jesus assures us that He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it. In verse 19, He states that we are not only to obey the law but we are to teach it also. Despite the clear instructions of Jesus that we are not only to OBEY the law but we are to TEACH it also, there are those that not only do not teach the law but they teach the law has ended and even severely condemn and criticize those that do teach the law. Their response to this passage is that fulfilling the law brings an end to the law, that is, destroys the law. Have a close look at this passage and see what Jesus would be saying if this were true. Consider if this paraphrased version makes any sense.
Starting with verse 17, this is what Jesus would effectively be saying, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to DESTROY THE LAW but I have come to DESTROY THE LAW. Now that I have come to fulfil the law and hence destroy the law, I am telling you that till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall, that is, not the crossing of a “t” or the dotting of an “i” shall in NO wise pass from the law that I am ending. And since fulfilling the law ends and destroys the law, I am telling you that whosoever therefore shall BREAK ONE of these least Commandments shall be referred to as least by those in the kingdom, and since I am abolishing the law, I am telling you that you are now to TEACH THE LAW also that I am abolishing. You have heard before that “THOU SHALL NOT KILL” but now that I am fulfilling and so ending the law, now I say that whosoever is ANGRY with his brother WITHOUT A CAUSE shall be in danger of the judgment and whosoever shall say, YOU FOOL, shall be in danger of HELL FIRE. You have heard that it was said by them of old time, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY” but since fulfilling the law ends the law, now I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has COMMITTED ADULTERY with her already in his heart.”
No one in their right mind could possibly say that this makes one iota of common sense or logic. One could not have a more absurd load of nonsense and contradictory statements if one tried. There is a Greek word for fulfilled that we will discuss later below that does mean to bring to an end, but the word used here is not that one. The Greek word used for fulfil in Matthew 5:17 means to do fully or to give full meaning, and to be obeyed as it should be. Clearly what we do not see in this passage is Jesus destroying the law as He informed us He would not do, but what we do observe is Jesus giving the law its full meaning by obeying and magnifying the law. The other fact that many overlook is that any relevant change that was to occur in the New Testament was always prophesied in the Old Testament. Where in the Old Testament does it say that Jesus would end the law or even one Commandment such as the fourth Commandment the Sabbath? It does not! Since this passage is actually showing Jesus magnifying the law, we should have an Old Testament prophet telling us that Jesus would in fact magnify the law. Does this scripture exist? It has to and does! We should not be strangers to this fact as we are given a Messianic prophecy that tells us that Christ would in fact do exactly this, and there is no mistaking that this is precisely what Jesus is doing in Matthew 5 and not destroying or ending the law as we are told ever so clear that He was not going to do. - Christ Jesus Fulfilled The Law - Meaning Of Fulfilling The Law
However, Jesus was here speaking to the Jews and not the Gentiles...So, there is that to ponder...If he meant this for the Jews, how, then, would a Gentile be applying it to himself?...Unless, of course. that Gentile converted to Judaism, thereby joining himself to G-d per Isaiah 56...Then, it would be applying to him...
Something else:
"Fulfill the Law" as a Rabbinic Idiom
It will help us greatly to know that the phrase "fulfill the Torah" is a rabbinic idiom that is still in use even today. The word we read as "law" is torah in Hebrew, and its main sense is teaching, guidance and instruction, rather than legal regulation. It is God's instructions for living, and because of God's great authority, it demands obedience and therefore takes on the sense of "law." The Torah is often understood to mean the first five books of the Bible, but also refers to the Scriptures in general. In Jesus' time, and among Jews today, this is a very positive thing - that the God who made us would give us instructions for how to live.1 The rabbis made it their goal to understand these instructions fully and teach people how to live by it.
The translation of "to fulfill" is lekayem in Hebrew (le-KAI-yem), which means to uphold or establish, as well as to fulfill, complete or accomplish.2 David Bivin has pointed out that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends. The word "abolish" was likely either levatel, to nullify, or la'akor, to uproot, which meant to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it. For example, the law against adultery could be interpreted as specifically against cheating on one's spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so in rabbinic parlance he was "fulfilling the Law." In contrast, if a pastor told his congregation that watching x-rated videos was fine, he would be "abolishing the Law" - causing them to not live as God wants them to live. Here are a couple examples of this usage from around Jesus' time:
- More
Found something else:
The point Rabbi Gamaliel made was that his interpretation did not “take way from” or “add to” the words of the Torah. An interpretation that “took away from” or “added to” the words of the Torah and incorrectly explained the words of the Torah, destroyed, or in other words, abolished the Law. On the other hand, an interpretation that correctly explained the words of the Torah fulfilled the Law. - http://therealyesua.blogspot.com/201...t-abolish.html
So, now people can know that what Jesus meant when he uttered those words was...And the fulfilling had nothing to do with dying on the cross...Or anything else, for that matter, but was speaking specifically about the Torah...
Last edited by Richard1965; 12-18-2015 at 01:04 PM..
Mat 5:17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;
Mat 5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.
Mat 5:19 `Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands--the least--and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them , he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.
Mat 5:20 `For I say to you, that if your righteousness may not abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye may not enter to the reign of the heavens.
What could he have possibly meant here?...
How do we know when the word “Commandment” or “Commandments” in the New Testament actually refers to the Biblical Ten Commandments? Does loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbour as yourself nullify the Ten Commandments? The Apostle John wrote that Jesus spoke of a “New Commandment.” What does John mean by this and does it change our obligation to observe the Ten Commandments? Does Jesus fulfilling the law bring an end to the law? All these questions will now be answered not by speculation or private interpretation, but by references from the Word of God.
Meaning of Jesus Fulfilling the Law
In Matthew 5:17, Jesus assures us that He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it. In verse 19, He states that we are not only to obey the law but we are to teach it also. Despite the clear instructions of Jesus that we are not only to OBEY the law but we are to TEACH it also, there are those that not only do not teach the law but they teach the law has ended and even severely condemn and criticize those that do teach the law. Their response to this passage is that fulfilling the law brings an end to the law, that is, destroys the law. Have a close look at this passage and see what Jesus would be saying if this were true. Consider if this paraphrased version makes any sense.
Starting with verse 17, this is what Jesus would effectively be saying, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to DESTROY THE LAW but I have come to DESTROY THE LAW. Now that I have come to fulfil the law and hence destroy the law, I am telling you that till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall, that is, not the crossing of a “t” or the dotting of an “i” shall in NO wise pass from the law that I am ending. And since fulfilling the law ends and destroys the law, I am telling you that whosoever therefore shall BREAK ONE of these least Commandments shall be referred to as least by those in the kingdom, and since I am abolishing the law, I am telling you that you are now to TEACH THE LAW also that I am abolishing. You have heard before that “THOU SHALL NOT KILL” but now that I am fulfilling and so ending the law, now I say that whosoever is ANGRY with his brother WITHOUT A CAUSE shall be in danger of the judgment and whosoever shall say, YOU FOOL, shall be in danger of HELL FIRE. You have heard that it was said by them of old time, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY” but since fulfilling the law ends the law, now I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has COMMITTED ADULTERY with her already in his heart.”
No one in their right mind could possibly say that this makes one iota of common sense or logic. One could not have a more absurd load of nonsense and contradictory statements if one tried. There is a Greek word for fulfilled that we will discuss later below that does mean to bring to an end, but the word used here is not that one. The Greek word used for fulfil in Matthew 5:17 means to do fully or to give full meaning, and to be obeyed as it should be. Clearly what we do not see in this passage is Jesus destroying the law as He informed us He would not do, but what we do observe is Jesus giving the law its full meaning by obeying and magnifying the law. The other fact that many overlook is that any relevant change that was to occur in the New Testament was always prophesied in the Old Testament. Where in the Old Testament does it say that Jesus would end the law or even one Commandment such as the fourth Commandment the Sabbath? It does not! Since this passage is actually showing Jesus magnifying the law, we should have an Old Testament prophet telling us that Jesus would in fact magnify the law. Does this scripture exist? It has to and does! We should not be strangers to this fact as we are given a Messianic prophecy that tells us that Christ would in fact do exactly this, and there is no mistaking that this is precisely what Jesus is doing in Matthew 5 and not destroying or ending the law as we are told ever so clear that He was not going to do. - Christ Jesus Fulfilled The Law - Meaning Of Fulfilling The Law
However, Jesus was here speaking to the Jews and not the Gentiles...So, there is that to ponder...If he meant this for the Jews, how, then, would a Gentile be applying it to himself?...Unless, of course. that Gentile converted to Judaism, thereby joining himself to G-d per Isaiah 56...Then, it would be applying to him...
Something else:
"Fulfill the Law" as a Rabbinic Idiom
It will help us greatly to know that the phrase "fulfill the Torah" is a rabbinic idiom that is still in use even today. The word we read as "law" is torah in Hebrew, and its main sense is teaching, guidance and instruction, rather than legal regulation. It is God's instructions for living, and because of God's great authority, it demands obedience and therefore takes on the sense of "law." The Torah is often understood to mean the first five books of the Bible, but also refers to the Scriptures in general. In Jesus' time, and among Jews today, this is a very positive thing - that the God who made us would give us instructions for how to live.1 The rabbis made it their goal to understand these instructions fully and teach people how to live by it.
The translation of "to fulfill" is lekayem in Hebrew (le-KAI-yem), which means to uphold or establish, as well as to fulfill, complete or accomplish.2 David Bivin has pointed out that the phrase "fulfill the Law" is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends. The word "abolish" was likely either levatel, to nullify, or la'akor, to uproot, which meant to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it. For example, the law against adultery could be interpreted as specifically against cheating on one's spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so in rabbinic parlance he was "fulfilling the Law." In contrast, if a pastor told his congregation that watching x-rated videos was fine, he would be "abolishing the Law" - causing them to not live as God wants them to live. Here are a couple examples of this usage from around Jesus' time:
- More
Found something else:
The point Rabbi Gamaliel made was that his interpretation did not “take way from” or “add to” the words of the Torah. An interpretation that “took away from” or “added to” the words of the Torah and incorrectly explained the words of the Torah, destroyed, or in other words, abolished the Law. On the other hand, an interpretation that correctly explained the words of the Torah fulfilled the Law. - The Real Yeshua: Yeshua came to fulfill the Law not abolish it.
So, now people can know that what Jesus meant when he uttered those words was...And the fulfilling had nothing to do with dying on the cross...Or anything else, for that matter, but was speaking specifically about the Torah...
This is quite thought provoking. Correct interpretation as a fulfillment of the law makes a lot more sense of the actions and apparent contradictions between Jesus's words and actions versus the OT Law.
Thank you for providing the information.
I predict it will make for some unhappy fundamentalist christians, however, given as how they are in the business of misinterpretation of just about all scripture.
Too soon to rep you again, but
This is quite thought provoking. Correct interpretation as a fulfillment of the law makes a lot more sense of the actions and apparent contradictions between Jesus's words and actions versus the OT Law.
Thank you for providing the information.
I predict it will make for some unhappy fundamentalist christians, however, given as how they are in the business of misinterpretation of just about all scripture.
Too soon to rep you again, but
Well, Killing the law is not the opposite of fulfilling the law in general, unless it has a more idiomatic meaning...Killing the law (explaining it incorrectly), fulfilling the law (explaining it correctly), I think it is very deceptive of someone to attempt to teach that it meant that Jesus abolished the law through fulfilling it, which makes not sense...He said that he did not come to abolish the law, however, that is exactly what he did by fulfilling it, according to many folks...And that makes no sense...
Well, Killing the law is not the opposite of fulfilling the law in general, unless it has a more idiomatic meaning...Killing the law (explaining it incorrectly), fulfilling the law (explaining it correctly), I think it is very deceptive of someone to attempt to teach that it meant that Jesus abolished the law through fulfilling it, which makes not sense...He said that he did not come to abolish the law, however, that is exactly what he did by fulfilling it, according to many folks...And that makes no sense...
I read your excellent post and this one essential feature of it. You are so close to getting it that I cannot understand what is cognitively preventing you from going all the way. Correcting the interpretation of the law was PRECISELY why Jesus came. The Old Covenant and the Law was NOT accomplishing its purpose as revealed in Hebrews so it had to be replaced with a New Covenant written in our hearts and minds so no one would need to be taught. But Christ abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to this truth so we can interpret every single situation in the proper state of mind, no need for specific rules. When we act in the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God), we cannot sin and we fulfill all the law by achieving its real purpose.
I read your excellent post and this one essential feature of it. You are so close to getting it that I cannot understand what is cognitively preventing you from going all the way. Correcting the interpretation of the law was PRECISELY why Jesus came. The Old Covenant and the Law was NOT accomplishing its purpose as revealed in Hebrews so it had to be replaced with a New Covenant written in our hearts and minds so no one would need to be taught. But Christ abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to this truth so we can interpret every single situation in the proper state of mind, no need for specific rules. When we act in the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God), we cannot sin and we fulfill all the law by achieving its real purpose.
Jesus stated why he was sent, and it was only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel...His interpreting the Law correctly was to those Lost Sheep...The way was not opened to the Gentiles until later...And the New Covenant where the Laws are written on ones heart was specific to the Houses of Israel and Judah (which by the way are not Gentiles)...
I read your excellent post and this one essential feature of it. You are so close to getting it that I cannot understand what is cognitively preventing you from going all the way. Correcting the interpretation of the law was PRECISELY why Jesus came. The Old Covenant and the Law was NOT accomplishing its purpose as revealed in Hebrews so it had to be replaced with a New Covenant written in our hearts and minds so no one would need to be taught. But Christ abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to this truth so we can interpret every single situation in the proper state of mind, no need for specific rules. When we act in the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God), we cannot sin and we fulfill all the law by achieving its real purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Jesus stated why he was sent, and it was only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel...His interpreting the Law correctly was to those Lost Sheep...The way was not opened to the Gentiles until later...And the New Covenant where the Laws are written on ones heart was specific to the Houses of Israel and Judah (which by the way are not Gentiles)...
I get that you feel special because of some genetic link, but I find repulsive ALL such exclusivities. The consciousness I encountered would be incapable of any such exclusivity.
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