Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The inherited nature provides the predisposition to do things to be guilty of but not the guilt itself.
No...we are born sinners. We sin because we're sinners. We are not sinners because we sin. You and me both were guilty the moment we were born. In sin we were conceived.
Quote:
But we are arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It occurs to me that you're interested in the inherited guilt thing in order to make human nature seem more hopeless than it actually is. If you can get people to throw up their hands and give up on being their best selves then you can sell them a metaphysical "cure".
That's what the Bible says, so yah. That's what I'm arguing.
Quote:
For this to mean something in actual reality rather than just some abstract "positional truth" we would have to see Christians freed from the human condition and no longer "sinning" or being less than paragons of virtue. Instead we see that they are neither better nor worse than anyone else, as you yourself assert every time a Christian gets caught with their hand in the proverbial cookie jar.
Have you never known a Christian that changed from before to after?
We sin because we're sinners. We are not sinners because we sin.
That would be like throwing you in prison for murder because of some claim that you have a murderous nature, rather than an actual investigation that determines that you've actually committed murder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Have you never known a Christian that changed from before to after?
Not whose nature changed.
Some find belief useful in helping to motivate behavioral changes ... usually those who are particularly off the rails to being with.
But this "new creation" where "all things" are new? No. Not one. Not even close.
That would be like throwing you in prison for murder because of some claim that you have a murderous nature, rather than an actual investigation that determines that you've actually committed murder.
You're right. We can't really tell who or what a person is internally until we see what they do. Of course, with human beings it's evident from a very young age that we are sinners.
Quote:
Not whose nature changed.
How would you know?
Quote:
Some find belief useful in helping to motivate behavioral changes ... usually those who are particularly off the rails to being with.
Non-sequitur.
Quote:
But this "new creation" where "all things" are new? No. Not one. Not even close.
Even the apostle Paul had problems trying to live a sinless life. He knew what he WANTED to do...but he couldn't. I don't claim to be any better than him. All of us are still plagued by the problems of sin---since we live in this world. But I have known many people that changed overnight when they became a Christian. Are they perfect? No way. But they're different. Likewise, I am different than I was before. Perfect? Not even close, but God is changing me slowly.
You're right. We can't really tell who or what a person is internally until we see what they do. Of course, with human beings it's evident from a very young age that we are sinners.
How would you know?
Non-sequitur.
Even the apostle Paul had problems trying to live a sinless life. He knew what he WANTED to do...but he couldn't. I don't claim to be any better than him. All of us are still plagued by the problems of sin---since we live in this world. But I have known many people that changed overnight when they became a Christian. Are they perfect? No way. But they're different. Likewise, I am different than I was before. Perfect? Not even close, but God is changing me slowly.
Excellent points Vizio.
I think one of the problems is the misunderstanding that people believe Christians should be perfect. Even the early Christians were very imperfect. Paul was writing letters to the early Christians concerning their deportment. If we claimed to be perfect, then yes, we would be hypocrites. Since we are sinners saved by grace, that tells me we are still sinners. It is not until we put on incorruption and immortality that we will then be perfect as Christ is. The good thing is that "God is not reckoning our offenses." And "He is dealing graciously with all our offenses." We offend. We sin. We fail. But we believe in the One Who never failed and we shall one day be like Him.
I think one of the problems is the misunderstanding that people believe Christians should be perfect.
That's interesting because I didn't make that argument and haven't see anyone else make it. It's just that given the florid rhetoric about "old things are passed away, ALL is become new", "NEW CREATIONS in Christ", etc., I would be content with Christians being just significantly LESS imperfect. If as Viz says Christians are "still plagued by the problems of sin" then regeneration is a meaningless claim that ought to be dropped other than noted as a prophecy which will glorify god at some point in the future by being fulfilled.
So the claim that your tribe is making is not that you are perfect but that you are completely new and improved which sounds like another way of saying that you are at least a lot CLOSER to perfect.
The way some people tap danced around that when I was a youngster in the faith was to say that you have to understand the difference between "positional truth" and "manifested truth" ... we are "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" for example is a conferred / imputed status, with no present literal fulfillment, just something that is held like an IOU, by faith. Which is fine if that floats your boat, but it ruins it as any sort of present rationale or incentive that suggests that being a Christian makes you in any relevant / meaningful way a better person -- or by extension, that not being a Christian makes you in any relevant / meaningful way a worse person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The good thing is that "God is not reckoning our offenses." And "He is dealing graciously with all our offenses." We offend. We sin. We fail. But we believe in the One Who never failed and we shall one day be like Him.
So there's this thing called sin that god invented by making it wrong for us to be as he made us, but if we accept that he sent his son to die in order to magically expiate our guilt, we can continue to sin just like before but god gives us a free pass on that until he gets around to fixing what made us bad and evil and sinful and guilty in the first place.
But I have known many people that changed overnight when they became a Christian. Are they perfect? No way. But they're different. Likewise, I am different than I was before. Perfect? Not even close, but God is changing me slowly.
Many people change overnight when they give up superstitious belief.
It's a relief for some to quit trying to make sense of things like "original sin" and "blood atonement" and the like.
It makes more sense that we have an "animal nature" which is mostly located in our limbic system and makes us capable of behaving in primitive ways. However, through the millennia we have discovered that succumbing to our animal nature is counter-productive to our survival as both individuals and as a collective species/society.
The biblical story is essentially a primitive attempt to explain all these things that science has now been able to answer to a great degree.
To me the garden/apple/snake story is an allegory about what was to happened to humans after they became clever enough to survive outside of the equatorial zone which required us to become hunter gatherers instead of just foragers in the jungle.
But if you want to believe in all that stuff then certainly I have no problem with that. It is unfortunate though that you have to project all that stuff on everybody else.
Many people change overnight when they give up superstitious belief.
It's a relief for some to quit trying to make sense of things like "original sin" and "blood atonement" and the like.
It makes more sense that we have an "animal nature" which is mostly located in our limbic system and makes us capable of behaving in primitive ways. However, through the millennia we have discovered that succumbing to our animal nature is counter-productive to our survival as both individuals and as a collective species/society.
The biblical story is essentially a primitive attempt to explain all these things that science has now been able to answer to a great degree.
To me the garden/apple/snake story is an allegory about what was to happened to humans after they became clever enough to survive outside of the equatorial zone which required us to become hunter gatherers instead of just foragers in the jungle.
But if you want to believe in all that stuff then certainly I have no problem with that. It is unfortunate though that you have to project all that stuff on everybody else.
Yes? It is unfortunate that you have to project your reality map stuff on everybody else.
So there's this thing called sin that god invented by making it wrong for us to be as he made us, but if we accept that he sent his son to die in order to magically expiate our guilt, we can continue to sin just like before but god gives us a free pass on that until he gets around to fixing what made us bad and evil and sinful and guilty in the first place.
Makes perfect sense.
In Paul's epistles, do you see anyone getting a free pass for sinning? There is a difference between offenses and sins. Christ died for our sins but He did not die to keep us from needful, loving correction even if that correction should be severe.
The scripture "all things are new" is in Revelation and that takes place in the final eon. The prophecy of revelation is yet future.
That we "are seated with Christ among the celestials" is what is called "proleptic."
That we are said to be "a new creation in Christ" has more to do with when we put on immortality and incorruption. Then we will be a new creation in reality. But we can and should try to at least live as if we are a new creation now. We fail often. But we get up and try again. I see nothing remotely wrong with that. It is the person who falls and stays down and gives up that is the wrong stance to take.
In Paul's epistles, do you see anyone getting a free pass for sinning? There is a difference between offenses and sins. Christ died for our sins but He did not die to keep us from needful, loving correction even if that correction should be severe.
You stated:
Quote:
The good thing is that "God is not reckoning our offenses." And "He is dealing graciously with all our offenses."
That sounds like a free pass to me.
Yes, other passages conflict with that but you're the one who brought this one up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The scripture "all things are new" is in Revelation and that takes place in the final eon. The prophecy of revelation is yet future.
No it's in I Corinthians 5:17. I'm not talking about the new heavens and the new earth. And I don't think for a minute that you actually misunderstood that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
That we "are seated with Christ among the celestials" is what is called "proleptic."
Yes, that's another word for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
That we are said to be "a new creation in Christ" has more to do with when we put on immortality and incorruption. Then we will be a new creation in reality. But we can and should try to at least live as if we are a new creation now. We fail often. But we get up and try again. I see nothing remotely wrong with that. It is the person who falls and stays down and gives up that is the wrong stance to take.
I Cor 5:17 does not claim that "If any man be in Christ he will be a new creation someday but should aspire to pretend that he already is". Nor have I ever heard it taught that way. I was always told it was a present reality that I was perfectly capable of fulfilling unless I was short on faith or desire.
But okay ... allowing for the sake of argument that you have the correct interpretation, and assuming your sect in fact does not advertise it the way I understood it, then it would seem that there is nothing about god's objective morality that actually changes human behavior like many Christians claim. That, to, is only "proleptic".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
