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But it's naive to suggest that we haven't seen an upswing in people that self-identify as Muslim, and they cry out Islamic praises to Allah as they commit the violent acts in public. Let's just be fair.
And the Klan, who self-identify as Christian, has used the Christian cross for over 150 years to symbolize their evil deeds. Which include lynchings and murder. Let's just be fair.
That is a very real possibility. Typically, though, when there is a mass shooting by a non-Muslim they do not yell out something to the effect of "God is Great". Are there nut jobs that say God told them to kill their babies? Yup. There most certainly are. But it's naive to suggest that we haven't seen an upswing in people that self-identify as Muslim, and they cry out Islamic praises to Allah as they commit the violent acts in public. Let's just be fair.
i agree, there has been a rash of that happening; enough that I wonder how many of them actually Know what it means and under what conditions a person should say it?
On a personal not it strikes me as blasphemy when one hollers it before harming any innocent people. It is "Taking the name of God in vain"
And the Klan, who self-identify as Christian, has used the Christian cross for over 150 years to symbolize their evil deeds. Which include lynchings and murder. Let's just be fair.
Good point. I'll give you that one.
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
i agree, there has been a rash of that happening; enough that I wonder how many of them actually Know what it means and under what conditions a person should say it?
On a personal not it strikes me as blasphemy when one hollers it before harming any innocent people. It is "Taking the name of God in vain"
I've thought about what you've said, and what Dew pointed out above. I realize fully that there have been a lot of bad things done in this country in the name of Christianity. Most Christians would be horrified at something like that happening. And I realize that there are a lot of nice Muslims that thing that a beheading in Allah's name is a horrible, horrible thing.
I guess what it really comes down to is that we just don't have a lot of good interaction with nice muslims in this country to the point that it overshadows the bad stuff. There isn't a mosque in every town, or 5 different mosques representing 4 variations of Islam in a town of 500 people. It's not familiar to most of us. And when we do hear of Muslims in the news, it's typically when some folks are doing violence while shouting an Islamic cry.
On the contrary, we hear of a Klansman or the Westboro inbreeds and the vast majority of us are sickened and outraged by them. We know of 100 good, non-violent Christians for every 1 of those kinds of people.
I've thought about what you've said, and what Dew pointed out above. I realize fully that there have been a lot of bad things done in this country in the name of Christianity. Most Christians would be horrified at something like that happening. And I realize that there are a lot of nice Muslims that thing that a beheading in Allah's name is a horrible, horrible thing.
I guess what it really comes down to is that we just don't have a lot of good interaction with nice muslims in this country to the point that it overshadows the bad stuff. There isn't a mosque in every town, or 5 different mosques representing 4 variations of Islam in a town of 500 people. It's not familiar to most of us. And when we do hear of Muslims in the news, it's typically when some folks are doing violence while shouting an Islamic cry.
On the contrary, we hear of a Klansman or the Westboro inbreeds and the vast majority of us are sickened and outraged by them. We know of 100 good, non-violent Christians for every 1 of those kinds of people.
I think you may have hit on something.
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On the contrary, we hear of a Klansman or the Westboro inbreeds and the vast majority of us are sickened and outraged by them. We know of 100 good, non-violent Christians for every 1 of those kinds of people
I suspect there are not many people living in the USA that personally know 100 Muslims. Lack of familiarity does breed distrust and fear.
I think you may have hit on something.
I suspect there are not many people living in the USA that personally know 100 Muslims. Lack of familiarity does breed distrust and fear.
Credit your wonderful soul, Wood, for mitigating my attitude and ideas about Islam. Some of the made for TV fare early on was quite disturbing. They portrayed moderate decent Muslims befriending and living in harmony with us. Then they showed them using that trust to betray and cause havoc to the surprise and chagrin (and death) of their adopted friends. Scary stuff. The media has guilt in perpetuating the problems.
What would be the reaction if they were done by Muslims?
If those things were done by Muslims, who swore allegiance to Islam immediately before those acts, and if they were screaming lala snackbar while doing them....you could be sure our president and the entire Main Stream Media in this country would never use the term Islamic Terrorism. Oh, and the mayor of cities where the attacks took place would proclaim that they had nothing to do with Islam.
However those case poor examples-no innocent people have been slaughtered.
If those things were done by Muslims, who swore allegiance to Islam immediately before those acts, and if they were screaming lala snackbar while doing them....you could be sure our president and the entire Main Stream Media in this country would never use the term Islamic Terrorism. Oh, and the mayor of cities where the attacks took place would proclaim that they had nothing to do with Islam.
I don't agree with claiming that attacks by terrorists who are Muslims have "nothing to do" with Islam. It's a legitimate point that Islam has a dark underbelly (so long as we don't deny Christianity's dark underbelly) and that Muslims need to more effectively deal with whatever systemic problems their religion has.
On the other hand as a Muslim teen (in the UK I believe) ably pointed out on Twitter recently, what is he supposed to do about reigning in some terrorists on the other side of the world, when he isn't even sure how to ask a girl out on a date?
What are you for example supposed to do about Westboro Baptist's hate-mongering? How would you demonstrate in some concrete and unambiguous way that you are not that sort of Christian? Would it even be fair to demand that you do so? Are all Christians obliged to be anti-Westboro activists in order that Westboro cooties don't get on them and cause them all to be judged as Westboro-ish?
And what has Christianity done about its systemic problems that cause and allow Westboro to exist? And abortion clinic bombers and shooters?
Has Christianity reconfigured itself so that something like the Inquisition could never, ever happen again? I'd argue not. Should we then start deporting Christians as an existential threat? Or should we simply identify people (who may happen to be Christians) who are an actual existential threat and deal with them specifically?
I don't agree with claiming that attacks by terrorists who are Muslims have "nothing to do" with Islam. It's a legitimate point that Islam has a dark underbelly (so long as we don't deny Christianity's dark underbelly) and that Muslims need to more effectively deal with whatever systemic problems their religion has.
On the other hand as a Muslim teen (in the UK I believe) ably pointed out on Twitter recently, what is he supposed to do about reigning in some terrorists on the other side of the world, when he isn't even sure how to ask a girl out on a date?
What are you for example supposed to do about Westboro Baptist's hate-mongering? How would you demonstrate in some concrete and unambiguous way that you are not that sort of Christian? Would it even be fair to demand that you do so? Are all Christians obliged to be anti-Westboro activists in order that Westboro cooties don't get on them and cause them all to be judged as Westboro-ish?
And what has Christianity done about its systemic problems that cause and allow Westboro to exist? And abortion clinic bombers and shooters?
Has Christianity reconfigured itself so that something like the Inquisition could never, ever happen again? I'd argue not. Should we then start deporting Christians as an existential threat? Or should we simply identify people (who may happen to be Christians) who are an actual existential threat and deal with them specifically?
What I have done personally about Westoro's hate mongering is to join Patriot Guard Riders and block those hate-filled a-holes from protesting at military funerals.
What have you done to stop terrorist acts, sexual assaults and child rape on the part of Islamic followers? What have you done to stop CAIRs funding of Islamic terror? What have you done to block hate speech and training of hatred and violence at hundreds of mosques across this country? As much as say the Muslims of Iraq? The ones who, in that one country alone, outnumber ISIS by 1000:1. Lets be honest for a change-if Muslims in the ME opposed ISIS, there would be no ISIS.
What have Muslims in Germany done to protect women from violent mobs of Muslim men who rape and assault innocent women and children?
If Christians were committing the same sick, vicious, violent acts as Muslims are today, I would be every bit as quick to call them out. Actually more so-they actually should know better. As an atheist, I'm willing to call out sick, vicious acts committed in the name of any religion. How many people have Christians beheaded this year? Or burned alive? All in the name of their religion of course.
Oh, as to what Christians have done about abortion clinic bombers-they have put them in prison. They didn't stone the victims to death.
What did Christians do when 6 million Jews and others were slaughtered in the name of a (supposed) Christian? They declared war, sacrificed their lives in a great many cases and DESTROYED him and his cause. That is what they did! It's time for Muslims to do the same.
Don't get me wrong, I well aware that a good number of Muslims are not like that. But violent, savage acts do appear to be committed by Muslims, in the name of Islam, far more than any other religion, at least at the moment.
Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 01-13-2016 at 09:26 PM..
Credit your wonderful soul, Wood, for mitigating my attitude and ideas about Islam. Some of the made for TV fare early on was quite disturbing. They portrayed moderate decent Muslims befriending and living in harmony with us. Then they showed them using that trust to betray and cause havoc to the surprise and chagrin (and death) of their adopted friends. Scary stuff. The media has guilt in perpetuating the problems.
Thank You Mystic,
Looking back it seems there has always been fear and distrust of immigrants. It works in both directions, immigrants coming into a nation have fear of the established residents and established residents have fear of the immigrants. It usually takes at least 3 generations before there is mutual acceptance. The greater the differences the longer is the process of assimilation or even mutual trust.
In today's world it no longer takes a large organized group to inflict catastrophic damage. The average person on the street seems to have a need to believe that 9/11 required the joint approval and resources of every Muslim to have been carried out. That single day is probably the single most factor causing ongoing distrust of Muslims. I doubt if I will see the damage to interfaith goodwill be repaired in my lifetime.
What I have done personally about Westoro's hate mongering is to join Patriot Guard Riders and block those hate-filled a-holes from protesting at military funerals.
What have you done to stop terrorist acts, sexual assaults and child rape on the part of Islamic followers? What have you done to stop CAIRs funding of Islamic terror? What have you done to block hate speech and training of hatred and violence at hundreds of mosques across this country? As much as say the Muslims of Iraq? The ones who, in that one country alone, outnumber ISIS by 1000:1. Lets be honest for a change-if Muslims in the ME opposed ISIS, there would be no ISIS.
What have Muslims in Germany done to protect women from violent mobs of Muslim men who rape and assault innocent women and children?
If Christians were committing the same sick, vicious, violent acts as Muslims are today, I would be every bit as quick to call them out. Actually more so-they actually should know better. As an atheist, I'm willing to call out sick, vicious acts committed in the name of any religion. How many people have Christians beheaded this year? Or burned alive? All in the name of their religion of course.
Oh, as to what Christians have done about abortion clinic bombers-they have put them in prison. They didn't stone the victims to death.
What did Christians do when 6 million Jews and others were slaughtered in the name of a (supposed) Christian? They declared war, sacrificed their lives in a great many cases and DESTROYED him and his cause. That is what they did! It's time for Muslims to do the same.
One issue is you are making the assumption we are organized. Islam is very individual. We do not join nor are part of a group called Islam. We each practice the action of Islam individually. A Somalian Muslim has a different culture and language from an Indonesian Muslim. Neither of which are anything like a Lipkas (Polish/Lithuanian Muslim)
We have no central leadership over us. Here in the US most Mosques do not even have an Imam. What we do we have to do as individuals. No Muslim represents Islam, neither does any Islamic group. We are individuals and can only do what our own resources allow us to do.
Everybody seems to want to Jump on CAIR which in reality is a very small organization financed by less than a dozen wealthy individuals. Their membership has dropped to almost nothing and the average Muslim does not support them.
Since 2007 CAIR has had virtually 0 membership and is simply a handful of individuals.
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