Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If God want's us to know something more than what we are born to know why dosn't he just say it and save us all the agony?
God believes in Man more than man could ever dream of in return. Therefore, we seek for that kind of answer, and have to realize substitutes for the greatness of that sort of comment. And He will comment overwhelming us, or we will substitutively find human reading onto Him (the prophets, Karl Marx, pres. George Washington, Mother Teresa etc.).
Well there was the short story by Arthur C. Clark, the Star, which showed how an extra-terrestrial planet with intelligent life was destroyed (in fact the whole solar system) in order the star of the Maji could be suddenly flashed for the effect of finding the Christ birth by the three wise kings. It made the proof arise to the space travellors that God destroyed the planet to with the intent of our concerns here on Earth.
The conclusion was that God could not want to effect the course of history with wholly benevolent Desires or Beliefs. But the hypothesis I chose for the thinking of God believingwas to mark how He must believe in stranger ways than what man's limited intelligence would allow. I undersand something like a belief analogous in Him to me.
The first estate involved the selection of the Father's general manager for the structuring of this entire round of creation. Then the Father had to select a redeemer for the second estate. Satan thought the redemptive sacrifice of the Redeemer was virtually stupid and he therefore offered a plan that had never been tried before. When the Father chose the traditional plan with Jehovah or Jesus as the Redeemer, it caused a war in heaven because so many of the Father's children preferred Satan's plan. Satan wanted to eliminate the need for a Redeemer and guarantee salvation for all of the Father's children whether they wanted it or not. The only drawback to Satan's plan was the fact that it was based on force, and that is why the Father rejected it. This resulted in a war in heaven and concluded with one-third of the Father's children being ejected from their heavenly home.
The second estate was filled with perils under the traditional plan because everyone was at liberty to use his or her free agency so they could learn the difference between good and evil.
Of course, everyone would be held accountable for their abuse of free agency and would be punished for their misdeeds to the uttermost farthing.
But what if a person learned the difference between good and evil and wanted to avoid the punishment for past offenses. Could this be achieved?
The Father said there was a way if you knew how it worked. It was called the Atonement.
I urgently begged Elder John A. Widtsoe with whom I had become acquainted to explain the Atonement so I could comprehend it.
He began by carefully teaching me everything we have covered in Trilogy 1.
Then I was extremely anxious to have him get to the subject of the Atonement but, as usual, he began the discussion about a hundred miles away from the subject. In fact, he began with several questions. The first one was, "Where do you think your Father got his power?"
I suggested that he probably got it from HIS Father.
Elder Widtsoe said, "No, that is not correct. All he got from his Father was the authority of the keys to build a new round of creation. His Father did not hive him the power to do it."
He then asked me a second question. "What makes a great bishop?" I told him I thought it was his ordination. "No," he said, "a bishop merely gets his AUTHORITY from his ordination, but his POWER to be a great bishop comes from the same place that God gets his."
In total frustration I asked, "Well then, where does God get his power?"
He said, "Two passages in the scriptures will give you the key. They are both from the Doctrine and Covenants. In Section 29, verse 36, the Lord says, 'MY HONOR IS MY POWER' Then in section 63, verse 50 it says 'I am from ABOVE, and my power lieth BENEATH."
Elder Widtsoe then asked me what exists below God that honors him and gives him power, or, for that matter, what is there below a Bishop that gives him honor and therefore his power?
After a moment I said, "Well, with God it is the vast host of intelligences below God that honor him and therefore obey him. That certainly gives him power. And I suppose you could say the same thing about a bishop who is honored and obeyed and therefore from them he derives his power."
"Exactly!" said Elder Widtsoe. "This is a Priesthood principle. God and his servants acquire their power from those over whom they preside."
He continued, "I think you also know what makes a great bishop. It is everybody in their places for the Sunday services. It is deacons ready to serve the sacrament and worthy priests to bless it. It is teachers well prepared and radiant with the Spirit. It is young priests who make themselves conversant with the gospel and are anxious to be called on missions. It is vigilant Relief Society visiting teachers who are quick to detect the needs of the sick and the poor. These are the things that make people say, "my, what a great bishop!" Obviously, his power comes from the support of his ward and the honor which is demonstrated by the members of the ward responding enthusiastically to his guidance and leadership."
Then he continued: "It is the same way with God. The honor and obedience which he receives from his vast legion of intelligences is what gives him his power."
HOW GOD COULD LOSE HIS POWER
Then he surprised me by saying: "Did you know our Heavenly Father could lose that power?"
Of course that was a new doctrine to me, so I said, "How would that be possible? God is all-powerful. At least that is what I was always taught."
He said. "This amazing doctrine that God could lose his power is found in Alma Chapter 42. There it plainly teaches that God is the great arbiter of the universe and each intelligence is depending on him to be absolutely honest, absolutely just, absolutely fair, and absolutely unchangeable, otherwise HE WOULD CEASE TO BE GOD. [Alma 42"13, 22,25; Mormon 9:19] This is why the scripture says, "God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance," [Alma 45:16; D&C 1:31] or if he did, he would cease to be God. Or, in other words, GOD WOULD FALL!"
Then he quickly added, "But, of course, he isn't going to fall because he knows how to prevent it. However, he wants us to know that he COULD fall. The Father wants us to know that if he doesn't maintain the confidence and honor of the host of intelligences in this round of creation, they would cease to honor him, and then cease to obey him, and without his honor, he would cease to be God. This is the powerful message set forth in Alma, chapter 42 and Mormon 9:19."
Having set down these amazing and somewhat surprising principles, he continued by saying: "Now, we are ready to learn why the Atonement of Jesus Christ was indispensable to the Father. He needed Jesus to do something of supreme importance, which the Father could not do himself. If he tried to redeem his children after they had fallen, he would cease to be God!"
WHY WAS THE FALL NECESSARY?
Once I recognized the dilemma of the Father in the second estate, I asked, "Why was the Fall necessary?"
Briefly, here is what he told me. On the pathway of eternal progression, it is necessary during the Second Estate for mankind to learn the difference between good and evil. They must not only know the difference between the two but they must engrain into their very souls a determination to embrace the good and abhor the evil. They must reject the evil with an instinctive vehernence that will characterize their behavior in the family of the Gods forever. This is of paramount importance, particularly for those who are aspiring to become Gods.
Our Heavenly Father knew that we are incapable of encountering sin without partaking of some of it. It is inherent in our very nature that by attempting to learn about sin we cannot avoid some degree of contamination. Therefore, under celestial law, our encounter with sin automatically cuts us off from the presence of the Father. Paul stated emphatically that because of the Fall: "ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD." [Romans 3:23]
This leaves the Father helpless insofar as recovering his fallen children is concerned. This is what led Nephi to say"
"No unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore ye [who have sinned while learning about sin] are cast off forever." [1 Nephi 10"21]
SO WHAT IS THE ANSWER?
But, of course, if we have learned the difference between good and evil but cannot get back to the domain of our Heavenly Father so as to continue our eternal progression, the Father's plan to have us exalted and became Gods is defeated. Therefore, the family of the Gods had to adopt a device that would justify the Father in restoring us to his celestial realm and continue our eternal progression without jeopardizing his Godhood.
The object of the Atonement was to get the Intelligences to overlook our imperfections IN SPITE of our sins. The Protestant scholars believed that this was accomplished by having Jesus "pay for our sins" through his suffering and thereby balance the scales of justice. However, this theory involves a monumental problem and that is the fact that it isn't just to have one person pay for the sins of another. Amulek points this out in Alma 34:11-12]
Amulek then goes on to explain that the Atonement is not based on trying to balance the scales of justice but it is based on MERCY WHICH WIPES OUT THE DEMANDS OF JUSTICE. [Alma 34:15]
It turned out that this was the genius of the Atonement.
HOW DOES THE ATONEMENT WORK?
There are three essential requirements in a divine Atonement to accomplish something which the Father could never do himself. First, there must be someone who is loved by all the hosts of intelligences. They must love this person as much as they love God himself. This was achieved by making the Redeemer the general manager of the entire round of creation. By this means, every intelligence learned to love and honor the great Jehovah.
Second, this much-loved person must go through a horrendous crisis of infinite agony and suffering which is so intense that it arouses an outcry of compassion in every single intelligence who belongs to this round of creation.
Third, this much-loved person must then require repentance and a complete surrender to the requirements of the gospel so that Jesus will intercede and petition for the sake of his suffering that the convert can return to the Father and continue on the pathway of eternal progression.
Therefore, to summarize: With each round of creation there has to be an infinite sacrifice that arouses such a flood of mercy in the consciousness of every intelligence that it consents to permit the Father to bring us back into his presence so as to continue our training and exaltation.
Now we come to the climax of our discussion.
WHO SHOULD PUT THE SAVIOR THROUGH THE ATONING SACRIFICE?
In order to provide a redemptive sacrifice, someone must slay the Savior under excruciating circumstances. Who should do this? Should it be planned in advance, or just left to chance and circumstances? No doubt this ugly question was discussed at length between the Father and the Son in the preexistence. We are led to presume that a discussion similar to the following dialogue must have taken place because that is exactly the way it turned out:
The Father: My son, as you know, with each new round of creation we have to choose someone to make a redemptive sacrifice. I am grateful that you volunteered to provide the needed sacrifice for this present round of creation. Now, whom are you planning to be responsible for bringing to pass your redemptive sacrifice? In other words, who should slay you?
The Son: I would like to have my redemptive sacrifice brought about by some of those who loved me and who valiantly supported me during the War in Heaven. Since I will be coming into mortality through the loins of David, I believe I would like to have the Jews bring about my crucifixion.
The Father: But they would never crucify you if they knew who you were. In fact, as Paul will later say, "Had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory" [1 Corinthians 2:8]
The Son: Then I must arrange it so they will not realize who I am until after the crucifixion is over.
The Father: How will you bring that about?
The Son: Here is my plan. I will have the Jewish prophets reveal that the Messiah will be a Jew and that the Jews will think he is an impostor and slay him. Of course, their leaders will say that they would never kill their Messiah. No doubt they will denounce the prophecy as a myth and consider it an insult to the Jewish people. They will not only forbid anyone to teach this doctrine but pronounce a death penalty on anyone who dares to preach it. I am sure they will also remove from the scriptures the writing of any prophet who has taught that, the Messiah will be killed by his own people. As a result of this, they will have no way of knowing who I am when I come among them as the Redeemer. They will only know about my Second Coming when I will come in power as the great King Messiah. As a result, when I come to the earth the first time, they will expect me to come in power and set up a worldwide Jewish kingdom. When this fails to materialize, they will think I am an imposter and allow me to be killed.
The Father: Then what will happen to those who consented to your death because they thought you were an impostor?
The Son: Since they merely assented to my death, thinking I was an impostor, they will not be guilty of murder. Therefore, they can be forgiven because of my atoning sacrifice, which they themselves will have helped me bring about. After my resurrection I will explain to them that this was arranged in heaven before the world began. I will tell them that I wanted to have the Jews, my own people, assist in bringing about my sacrifice. Once it is explained to them how they innocently helped me through my redemptive ordeal, they can repent of their sins, including assenting to my death. I can then invite them to be baptized for the remission of their sins and welcome them into my kingdom.
The Father: But what about any of those who do not accept your invitation to enter your kingdom or still believe they assented to the crucifixion of an impostor?
The Son: They will be like anyone else who knowingly sins against the truth and rejects the message of the gospel. They will have to suffer the consequences.
The Father: I approve of the plan. It is identical with the one we have used in other rounds of creation throughout eternity.
PUTTING THE PLAN INTO OPERATION
After the tribe of Judah came into existence around 1800 B.C., the prophets of Israel taught the people the fullness of the gospel and explained to them that there would be a Messiah who would serve as a mediator to secure the forgiveness of their sins.
This seemed to be understood and fully accepted, but around a thousand years later, when several prophets taught how the Jews would help Jesus through this ordeal they were stoned to death for preaching it.
This is what happened to the Prophet Zenos and Zenoch [Helaman 8:19] and in 600 B.C. when the prophet Lehi described his vision of the Savior being crucified at the instigation of the Jews in the meridian of time, he had to flee for his life. [1 Nephi 2:1-2]
JESUS BEGINS HIS EARTHLY MINISTRY
It is rather amazing but Jesus appeared in the Holy Land right about the time the Jews were expecting their King Messiah to arrive. This exciting anticipation was based on an erroneous interpretation of a prophecy in the second chapter of Daniel.
It will be recalled that around 625 B.C., King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon had a terrible dream but could not afterwards remember it. The king threatened to execute all of his wise men if they did not tell him what the dream had been and what it meant. Daniel saved the lives of himself and three companions, as well as all of the king's wise men, by receiving a revelation from the Lord, which told him what the king had dreamed and also what it meant.
The king had seen a huge, grotesque image in his dream. The image represented the future kingdoms that would rule the world. The head was of gold, which turned out to be Babylon itself. The chest and arms were of silver, which turned out to be Persia that would conquer Babylon. The belly and thighs were of brass, which turned out to be Greece that would conquer Persia. Then the hips and legs, which were made of iron turned out to be the Romans who conquered Greece and later divided into the two legs of the eastern and western Roman Empires. The feet of the image were made of iron and miry clay which turned out to be the many European gentile nations, which developed in more recent times after the Roman Empire collapsed.
Daniel then told Nebuchadnezzar that "in the days of these kings [those of iron and miry clay] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever." [Daniel 2:44]
Daniel had said that the final scenes of this vision would take place "in the latter days," [Daniel 2:28] but the Jews in the days of Jesus thought that since the cruel iron kingdom of Rome had already became established, the stone of God's kingdom should be coming forth shortly under the great Messiah. They felt it would not only destroy all of the existing worldly kingdoms, but last forever.
The Jewish rabbis were not willing to wait until the latter days but wanted to interpret the second chapter of Daniel as being fulfilled in their day. The supreme key to their distorted interpretation was the overthrow of the Romans. They therefore taught that no matter how many miracles Jesus might perform, if he didn't overthrow the Romans, he was not the Messiah. So the people were waiting for Jesus to set up his kingdom and overthrow the Romans.
And we learn to our amazement that his apostles were expecting the same thing.
Life can really get complicated, can't it? I am glad I am just a simple soul who doesn't believe in all this stuff. I dont think I could find enough time and energy to sit around and debate all the ins and outs of philosophy (or maybe I have got the wrong '-osophy')
ok, ok... i took that out of context...Dorado0359 is in fact a non-thinker....but nonetheless, i believe with the statement above and i think it's a good answer for the OP's question.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
He missed hearing him. But don't believe me.
).
