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Not a bad commentary on it. I agree in large part. And to answer your question regarding what type of child I want....I teach my kids to think critically. I don't want a kid that will simply regurgitate my opinions. I don't believe that someone is a Christian simply by repeating the mantra they've been taught. I believe God wants people that actually believe. Likewise, I want me kid to understand why they hold the beliefs they do.
I actually do not perceive you as all that strongly authoritarian, so your response is unsurprising to me.
You did say something recently though about people (maybe it was even children) being "indoctrinated" with beliefs that were not approved doctrine or dogma to you and I pointed out that "indoctrination" is teaching a thing in such a way that it's not allowed to question it in any way. That is why "doctrine" is a term that originated with religion, because religion simply asserts doctrine and indoctrinates people with it by telling them it's a sin not to believe and embrace it.
So what I hear you saying here, putting all that together ... correct me if I'm wrong ... is that you want your children to know why they believe what they believe as something more than mere parroting. But at the same time ... you do not want them to be spouting doubts about the existence of god, or about young earth creationism, or thinking favorable things about same sex marriage (for example) ... at least not any such notions that are more than a brief detour from orthodoxy and result in the strengthening rather than the weakening of their beliefs.
I think it comes down to what it means to teach a child to think "critically". To me that is "using or involving careful judgment as to truth or merit". I suspect you would say something very similar if not the same. And yet ... I think how we judge truth or merit is very, very different -- and therefore how we expect our children to weigh truth or merit is very, very different. For you there are certain axiomatic truths that are non-negotiable. For me there is just reality and our accurate perception of and engagement with it that matters. Because nothing is 100% objective there will always be some wiggle room in assessing the odds of a thing being so or not ... but what I can no longer abide is deciding in advance that somethings "must" be true or "cannot" be untrue.
I actually do not perceive you as all that strongly authoritarian, so your response is unsurprising to me.
You did say something recently though about people (maybe it was even children) being "indoctrinated" with beliefs that were not approved doctrine or dogma to you and I pointed out that "indoctrination" is teaching a thing in such a way that it's not allowed to question it in any way. That is why "doctrine" is a term that originated with religion, because religion simply asserts doctrine and indoctrinates people with it by telling them it's a sin not to believe and embrace it.
So what I hear you saying here, putting all that together ... correct me if I'm wrong ... is that you want your children to know why they believe what they believe as something more than mere parroting. But at the same time ... you do not want them to be spouting doubts about the existence of god, or about young earth creationism, or thinking favorable things about same sex marriage (for example) ... at least not any such notions that are more than a brief detour from orthodoxy and result in the strengthening rather than the weakening of their beliefs.
If I have a kid that grows up to not believe, and does not claim Christianity, it will be because she was presented the teachings and she did not believe. It will not be because I failed to indoctrinate her. That's my point.
Having said that, I reject the notion of teaching a kid nothing about religion until they're "old enough to make their own decisions". I'm going to teach them what I believe, and why I believe it. If they choose to go against my beliefs, they are still my kids and I love them.
Quote:
I think it comes down to what it means to teach a child to think "critically". To me that is "using or involving careful judgment as to truth or merit". I suspect you would say something very similar if not the same. And yet ... I think how we judge truth or merit is very, very different -- and therefore how we expect our children to weigh truth or merit is very, very different. For you there are certain axiomatic truths that are non-negotiable. For me there is just reality and our accurate perception of and engagement with it that matters. Because nothing is 100% objective there will always be some wiggle room in assessing the odds of a thing being so or not ... but what I can no longer abide is deciding in advance that somethings "must" be true or "cannot" be untrue.
I want my kid to ask the questions. They need to believe, or disbelieve, because they have looked at the evidence. I'm afraid our churches, and our schools today, just force our kids to regurgitate facts -- whatever we believe them to be.
Personally, I think a lot of what is practiced in conservative denominations in the U.S. is not really Christianity but is another religion altogether called 'Republicanity' which is basically a cocktail of historic Christianity, right-wing politics, and hyper-patriotism. Here are a few things I can think of that are a sign your church is actually practicing Republicanity and not Christianity.
If a church teaches "lying for Jesus" is okay i.e. knowingly spreading false information or half-truths about various issues such as science, homosexuality, role of Christianity in America's founding, Obama, etc to promote a right-wing agenda, its probably Republicanity.
If a church consistently parallels 21st century America with Old Testament Israel, its probably Republicanity
If a church places a much higher importance on supporting war and the military than it does giving to the poor and needy, it's probably Republicanity.
If people are outraged and disgusted by LGBT people but turn a blind eye to divorce and remarriage, its probably Republicanity
If a person opposes abortion yet wants to make it more difficult to adopt children, they are probably practicing Republicanity.
If a person's image of the ideal Christian life is an affluent family life in suburbia, it's probably Republicanity
If a person believes the 1950s were the golden age of America and the peak of God's blessing on our country, they are probably practicing Republicanity
If a person believes the "blessings of God" promised in the Bible is material wealth, they are probably practicing Republicanity
If a person believes either George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan were "men of God", they are definitely practicing Republicanity.
Personally, I think a lot of what is practiced in conservative denominations in the U.S. is not really Christianity but is another religion altogether called 'Republicanity' which is basically a cocktail of historic Christianity, right-wing politics, and hyper-patriotism. Here are a few things I can think of that are a sign your church is actually practicing Republicanity and not Christianity.
If a church teaches "lying for Jesus" is okay i.e. knowingly spreading false information or half-truths about various issues such as science, homosexuality, role of Christianity in America's founding, Obama, etc to promote a right-wing agenda, its probably Republicanity.
If a church consistently parallels 21st century America with Old Testament Israel, its probably Republicanity
If a church places a much higher importance on supporting war and the military than it does giving to the poor and needy, it's probably Republicanity.
If people are outraged and disgusted by LGBT people but turn a blind eye to divorce and remarriage, its probably Republicanity
If a person opposes abortion yet wants to make it more difficult to adopt children, they are probably practicing Republicanity.
If a person's image of the ideal Christian life is an affluent family life in suburbia, it's probably Republicanity
If a person believes the 1950s were the golden age of America and the peak of God's blessing on our country, they are probably practicing Republicanity
If a person believes the "blessings of God" promised in the Bible is material wealth, they are probably practicing Republicanity
If a person believes either George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan were "men of God", they are definitely practicing Republicanity.
Thoughts? Does anybody else have anything to add?
No, nothing to add, but just wanted to say that you've made some pretty darned good points.
I reject the notion of teaching a kid nothing about religion until they're "old enough to make their own decisions". I'm going to teach them what I believe, and why I believe it. If they choose to go against my beliefs, they are still my kids and I love them.
Here we completely agree. Many unbelievers teach their children critical thinking skills but certainly aren't going to change their love or regard for their children should they take up some form of religion. It works both ways.
Organized religion has always been about politics, especially right-wing politics: keeping the lower classes and slaves "in their place," justifying wars against the "other," keeping the ruling classes or royal family in power, justifying oppression and systemic injustce, blaming victims, etc.
Republicanity is nothing new.
Democrats know keeping the poor poor keeps them voting democrat.
Democrats know keeping the poor poor keeps them voting democrat.
Would that this were true. Alas, many poor vote contrary to their own rational self interest ... or, simply don't see any point in participating in a rigged game that is all about the elites getting their way.
It is cold comfort that many poor lean Democratic, when it's a political process they are not even participating in. It is easy for Republicans to make it difficult, confusing or even impossible for the poor to vote; problem solved.
Democrats know keeping the poor poor keeps them voting democrat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Would that this were true. Alas, many poor vote contrary to their own rational self interest ... or, simply don't see any point in participating in a rigged game that is all about the elites getting their way.
It is cold comfort that many poor lean Democratic, when it's a political process they are not even participating in. It is easy for Republicans to make it difficult, confusing or even impossible for the poor to vote; problem solved.
It's not true? Democrats real motivation is for the poor to move economically upward?
It's not true? Democrats real motivation is for the poor to move economically upward?
I don't speak for all Democrats of course, and there is a Democratic Party establishment that is more interested in maintaining the status quo for the elites than in the sort of bold initiatives one associates with, say, FDR. Increasingly both Republicans and Democrats are owned / controlled by corporate interests and are content to let the middle class evaporate, nevermind the poor. Democratic rhetoric sounds nicer but is just as indifferent to the disadvantaged when push comes to shove. The disadvantaged sense, rightly so, that by and large neither conservatives nor liberals are in their corner anymore.
All that said, of course Democrats by and large sincerely wish to improve people's lives. Egalitarian sentiments have never been about establishing and perpetuating a permanent underclass. And certainly it's impossible by this point in history to argue that Republicans don't think poverty and disadvantage aren't all somehow 100% the fault of the people who find themselves in those straights. Given the choice between an authoritarian agenda and an egalitarian one, I'll take the latter every time. At least you have something to work with, like, say, a beating heart.
Thread closed pending moderator consideration, as it is more political in nature than suitable for this particular forum....
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