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Your faith is personal, subjective and non-binding on others and you make no claims otherwise. You are a fairly rare bird in this space however.
Yes I know, and I think that's a sad thing. I find it especially sad that religion gets used politically. There have been major episodes of this in history and I find it deplorable. Once a religion gets into politics it becomes just another political party, and not a faith at all anymore. It's little more than a politically manipulated voting block. Such was the case with the so-called Moral Majority.
By my lights if your faith is spiritually fragrant it will draw people to it by example, and you won't have to go out knocking on doors and endlessly bothering people in their homes to gain converts as some do. To me that gives the lie to their belief systems.
By my lights if your faith is spiritually fragrant it will draw people to it by example, and you won't have to go out knocking on doors and endlessly bothering people in their homes to gain converts as some do. To me that gives the lie to their belief systems.
Yes, I was interrupted at my home office just yesterday by a JW and her maybe 9 year old daughter inviting me to a free Bible study. As I always do, I kindly but firmly said "no thanks" and sent her on her way to torment my neighbors. And then I went back to work for the next 3 or 6 months until the next one comes along.
I don't know if I'd use the phrase "spiritually fragrant" given the stench some faiths give off, but I take your point. It is true that if you really emanate something admirable, worthy of emulation, and truly transformative, I will, contrary to stereotype, be the first to inquire concerning it, from anyone who humbly models it for me. I will be likely to conclude that their virtue comes from something other than asserted religious dogma, but at least such a person would have a fair shot at me as a potential convert -- despite my history as a deconvert and my general high level of satisfaction with my life as it is.
But this isn't how it plays out in the Real World.
Yes, I was interrupted at my home office just yesterday by a JW and her maybe 9 year old daughter inviting me to a free Bible study. As I always do, I kindly but firmly said "no thanks" and sent her on her way to torment my neighbors. And then I went back to work for the next 3 or 6 months until the next one comes along.
I don't know if I'd use the phrase "spiritually fragrant" given the stench some faiths give off, but I take your point. It is true that if you really emanate something admirable, worthy of emulation, and truly transformative, I will, contrary to stereotype, be the first to inquire concerning it, from anyone who humbly models it for me. I will be likely to conclude that their virtue comes from something other than asserted religious dogma, but at least such a person would have a fair shot at me as a potential convert -- despite my history as a deconvert and my general high level of satisfaction with my life as it is.
But this isn't how it plays out in the Real World.
Well, "spiritually fragrant" may not have been the best choice of wording, but you get my drift. I tend to agree with you about the stench of most dogmatic belief systems, and the kinds of social circles they tend to generate. I just take the view that if someone has a genuine spirituality to them, and that they live it instead of preaching it, then it will attract others to it by example because they will want that for themselves. Such examples are sadly lacking in what society has degenerated into.
Well, I guess that sounds fair enough. To me, there is nothing much more frustrating than arguing with an atheist -- unless it's arguing with a Jehovah's Witness.
It's definitely frustrating for both of us. That doesn't mean that we aren't both interested in it.
I am frustrated by an otherwise intelligent, logical, perceptive person turning off his brain when I point out logical fallacies and unsupported assertions. He is frustrated when I simply refuse to accept personal revelation as proof for god.
You're not exactly wrong but you're overthinking it. What I think is fairer to say is that humans have a strong innate tendency to elevate the simple fact of their mortality to an existential dilemma that threatens personal annihilation, and hence the appeal of religion, among other immortality projects. ...
Yes, scientific studies have shown that people are significantly more willing to believe any random statements that purport their own immortality among (i.e. even if adulterated with) other ideas, if they are reminded of their own mortality in some way, even if subliminally.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 04-28-2016 at 10:46 PM..
Actually, they claim him as a prophet--not Mesiah. And they deny that he died on a cross.
Is that what you thought?
Actually, Muhammad is very clear that Prophet Jesus is the Last Messiah and will come back with him during Judgment times and rule the Jews as the Messiah, and rule over an era of peace.
Muslims are also taught to believe that Jesus did intact suffer the martyrdom of the cross/persecution but did not die and instead had a faithful martyr look like him and replace him (so that Christians witnessing Jesus' wounded ghost were seeing a ghost at all but someone who didn't die, otherwise why would we have to wait for a resurrection time after a resurrection already occurred and it would strip the power of commonly accepted religious theme that people aren't resurrected as prove of religion because no one would believe it anyway) because prophets and Messiahs are given special protection by The God.
"The angels will not let a pebble stub his toe" and other stuff like that.
Quote:
That they [pagans] said [in boast], "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him [crucifixion is to the death], but so it was made to appear to them. Those who contradict this are full of doubts, and Anti-Gnostic, but they only follow conjecture. For sure they [pagans] killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158[8]
This Quran verse was simply a reflection of the Gnostic controversy, since a dead/ended Messiah can't really be a Messiah. But this vague verse leaves Muslims at their own imaginations and further evidences as to whether Jesus was even partially crucified at all (enough time to die from crucifixion, wounds implemented upon a Messiah, immortality to accomplish a mission and bodily reappear to disciples, immortality of some "divine essence" of a prophet/Messiah, etc).
Some Muslims believe he partook at least partially in the crucifixion sentence for purposely inviting sedition, some believe he didn't get crucified at all... They basically continue to Gnostic Christian controversy.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 04-28-2016 at 10:45 PM..
That is a fair characterization. Islam would not have a reason to exist if it affirmed the divinity of Jesus or the necessity of his substitutionary atonement.
...
Self-divinity and vicarious redemption have little to do with modern and ancient mainstream Jewish conceptions of Anointed Leadership.
Muslims believe that "Islamic tradition holds that Jesus, the son of Mary, was a Prophet and the Masîḥ (مسيح) (messiah) sent to the Israelites."
Or as Islam commonly views it: they are both right ["of the book", i.e. Abrahamic bibliolaters], but Islam is more right.
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