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The crazy thing is the extremist you must be 'saved' Christians believe only they will go to heaven, however bad they have been in the past. What sort of psycho would god be if it surrounded itself with the so called 'saved', however wicked, yet condemned good non believers to hell?
God is in the business of forgiving people (who are genuinely sorry for their actions) and changing them into good, productive citizens. Surely you don't have a problem with that.
Maybe you didn't have their same experiences but do you not have the same *beliefs"*? Do you not believe that anyone who doesn't have faith in Christ deserves to be sent to Hell?
As far as I'm concerned that kind of insane belief is evidence that people are dealing with issues inside themselves, projecting that junk onto others. That kind of faith is no different from fundamentalist Islam which also has their version of Hell.
What did Jesus say about that? You can find His answer in John 3.
God is in the business of forgiving people (who are genuinely sorry for their actions) and changing them into good, productive citizens. Surely you don't have a problem with that.
Is god genuinely sorry for its evil ways, if it exists?
You're changing the subject. Do you have a problem with bad people changing to good people?
A deflection: the problem is accepting bad people who become good while condemning those who are already good but not believers in the "right" doctrines.
Why is it that so many people of religious faith have a testimony about being a "worse" person in their past?
For example, they cheated, lied, stole, committed crimes, etc.
Some of them share their "testimony".
Many fundamentalist Muslims are converting to fundamentalist Christianity overnight.
Personally, I never did anything like the "prior bad" people describe. And also, I never really felt as strong of a "faith" during the years that I would have considered myself a person of faith.
Yet, they would consider me to be a "bad" person because of my lack of their particular faith. Even though I believe in God, since I don't accept their particular faith I am lost forever and I am worthy of their contempt.
Yet, I never desired to do any of the bad things that they profess to have done in their pasts. I also never felt like people lacking in the faith (I used to have) deserved to be tormented for not sharing my faith. Why does this make me such a bad person? Are people of faith just projecting their own "issues" onto others who don't have them?
For many people, they are not far removed from some really bad things before they find Christ. For others, not so much. I know a pastor friend who once gave his "testimony"....that being that he was raised in a Christian home, and he's known Christ since he was about 5. He never had that wild and crazy "before" story that you see a lot of folks give. He was thankful for that. He never did a drug, he never had sex before marriage, he never smoked cigarettes, or even drank alcohol. He was thankful he didn't know what it was.
But our society being what it is, we tend to glamorize the exciting things. We find it exciting when a guy is saved from drugs, alcohol, etc. It makes for a good story to talk about how "if not for Jesus, I'd be dead now...."
I think the belief of being given a clean slate is a powerful motivator for someone who has hit rock bottom. Hey, if they can use it as a turning point in their lives and go forth with some other purpose than self-destruction, I think it's great (regardless of whether the force behind it is real or not)... so long as their new-found beliefs are not used a weapon against others.
A deflection: the problem is accepting bad people who become good while condemning those who are already good but not believers in the "right" doctrines.
Two different things. Is God in the business of redeeming people or not?
Assuming this isn't just a 'we need religion, true or not' ploy, why and how does it give the person the motivation and confidence?
It doesn't really have to, it simply needs them to be dependent on the ideology as a sort of stand-in parent-figure. If the person is just in a cycle of self-loathing followed by the elation and release of "forgiveness" that is sufficient.
Of course some people truly benefit from structure, goals, and clear instructions of what is expected of them. Theists will claim this is the power of god, but the power of god is hardly necessary to explain the phenomenon.
My (late) oldest brother is a classic case. He was an addictive personality, booze and women being his main habits, and was quite the carouser in this youth. He was carousing, primarily, with drinking buddies, first in the Navy and then continuing the pattern after. He had a terrific need to "belong". At some point though an evangelical church got hold of him and offered him another form of "belonging" with less scary, totally socially acceptable behavior expected of him. He responded well to this and quit showing up at home at 1 am bombed out of his head and throwing up. Instead he started attending church at every opportunity, became an usher, eventually a deacon, then an elder -- married a Nice Christian Girl(tm) and so forth. In fact it was the change in his life that drew the rest of my family into that faith.
I have never denied the immediate value to some people of religious conversion. It helps certain kinds of personalities to believe they can change dysfunctional behaviors by shifting the perceived source of fortitude outside of themselves and providing "explanations" for their struggles with impulse control, addiction, and the like. It doesn't work 100% of the time and when it does work it works for the same reason that people can sometimes get their act together using other support systems or sometimes even none at all.
Sometimes, too, the person "falls off the wagon" whether the wagon is being pulled by the church or AA or themselves or whatever. There again the church has a mechanism for guilt, shame, forgiveness, catharsis, and a fresh start. Hardly the only or necessarily the most effective mechanism, but it is a mechanism and it often works.
What did Jesus say about that? You can find His answer in John 3.
I don't understand what John 3 has to do with Christians being more criminally minded or less so. I think John is a poorly written book which doesn't make a lot of sense in places. I think the book is probably written for people who desire for their enemies to suffer, so they are drawn to a God that gives them that promise.
If you can explain the chapter and your interpretation in real life terms, please do. But keep in mind that I am a Christian who doesn't believe in the supernatural Trinity you do. I think that was intended to be read as fiction. But if you can explain the principles without referring to the Trinity go ahead.
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