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I think you are unwittingly helping to make the OP's point.
Uh-huh.
I think it's safe to say there's a couple of billion people who identify as Christians but they come in thousands of different flavours, most of which claim to be their God's favourite.
I think you are unwittingly helping to make the OP's point.
I think I'm in part in agreement with the OP -- there are many people throughout the world that identify as Christian but in truth they are about as Christian as the Pope is Baptist.
I think I'm in part in agreement with the OP -- there are many people throughout the world that identify as Christian but in truth they are about as Christian as the Pope is Baptist.
So, I guess we can reduce that couple billion down to a couple hundreds.
I think I'm in part in agreement with the OP -- there are many people throughout the world that identify as Christian but in truth they are about as Christian as the Pope is Baptist.
So how can this problem be solved?
What's amazing to me is this: the Christian God has the power to create and sustain the entire universe, but he can't even keep his own religion from fragmenting into thousands of warring sects.
The eternal destiny of billions of human souls are at stake, and yet the Christian God is apparently unable to keep the One Saving Faith(tm) together.
For starters, realize that doctrine matters. It's ok to say that some folks are not in agreement with us. It's ok to say that some people are not Christians.
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What's amazing to me is this: the Christian God has the power to create and sustain the entire universe, but he can't even keep his own religion from fragmenting into thousands of warring sects.
The eternal destiny of billions of human souls are at stake, and yet the Christian God is apparently unable to keep the One Saving Faith(tm) together.
What is going on?
Of course he's able to. The question is why he doesn't. I would say for the same reason that not all of Israel was actually devoted to him, despite the nation being his chosen people.
Read the books of Exodus, Numbers, Judges, Joshua. There were some devoted, but there were many that simply did not care to worship their God and follow his commands. At times Israel failed to do so quite miserably. Ultimately, it glorified God because he sent his Messiah through this nation of backsliders anyway. Not because of what they did...but because of who he is.
For starters, realize that doctrine matters. It's ok to say that some folks are not in agreement with us. It's ok to say that some people are not Christians.
But who gets to decide who is a Christian and who is not? Some liberal Christians think that you are not a true Christian, but just one of those crazy fundamentalists. Read almost every post by WardenDresden if you doubt me. Many devout Catholics would probably say that you are not a true Christian since you are not part of the Catholic Church and reject the primacy of the Pope.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Of course he's able to. The question is why he doesn't. I would say for the same reason that not all of Israel was actually devoted to him, despite the nation being his chosen people.
Read the books of Exodus, Numbers, Judges, Joshua. There were some devoted, but there were many that simply did not care to worship their God and follow his commands. At times Israel failed to do so quite miserably. Ultimately, it glorified God because he sent his Messiah through this nation of backsliders anyway. Not because of what they did...but because of who he is.
But those heretical and misguided Christian groups are devoted to the Christian God and believe they are following his commands. Most are just as dedicated to their version of Christianity as you are dedicated to your version. So it's not a matter of reverence, it's a matter of what is believed to be true about the Christian God. Your analogy is questionable.
If salvation is dependent upon having the correct beliefs, why does the Christian God refuse to show the Truth(tm) to all of these misguided Christian groups?
The Christian God wants all to be saved, and yet he refuses to lovingly show members of the non-Vizio forms of Christianity the error of their ways. Why?
If salvation is dependent upon having the correct beliefs, why does the Christian God refuse to show the Truth(tm) to all of these misguided Christian groups?
I suspect that Viz will basically summarize thusly: god doesn't refuse to show anyone Truth, they refuse to receive it.
This bothered others back in the day way more than it bothered me. I recall people particularly getting hung up on the heathen tribes who had no knowledge of god and die in ignorance of him. Those people would be pointed to the work of organizations such as Wycliffe Bible Translators and it was even suggested that when there were no more languages into which at least the gospels had not been translated, it would usher in the second coming. Missionaries would regale us with tales of miraculous signs and wonders from god to such tribes. (When you think of it, this makes sense because as non-charismatics we claimed that signs and wonders were not for today because we have the scripture; logically then a remote tribe who does not have scripture in their own language would need -- and get -- signs and wonders). I recall a dramatic tale of a missionary home surrounded by attacking savages, and then the attack being called off because of the "big shining man" brandishing a giant spear on the roof of the missionary hut. Visible, apparently, only to the savages. Even as a Christian I was dubious of such stories, figuring that they were the product of overwrought brains and growing in the re-telling. But ... there you have it.
Arguably a better excuse was just that anyone in such a remote and unenlightened tribe who really sought god would be led to him somehow.
All of this strangely did not really touch me though, I really figured god would sort that kind of thing out. (Yeah, I really was a self-absorbed douchebag in those days). I suspect most Christians don't trouble themselves too much about why some people are ignorant of god, so long as it's not THEM. Others are bothered but easily satisfied with campfire stories such as the above. It is not unlike any other group that sees themselves as privileged; somehow it tends to be the fault of the un-privileged that they aren't privileged. Poor people must be lazy, blacks must be incapable of self-governance so they end up in prison, and gays have AIDS because buttsex. And heathens must be heathens because sin. So it goes.
And, of course, there is a whole group of people that believe nothing that Biblical Christianity teaches, and their only claim to Christianity is that maybe they talk about Jesus occasionally when they go to their gathering place. But we are called bigots if we dare to suggest their faith is not the same faith that the apostles died for.
It should have worried you. The apostles died over such doctrines. Church councils were held to figure that stuff out, and they condemned those that didn't believe it.
That is because Biblical Christianity is NOT Christ's Christianity. Those councils corrupted Christ's Gospel beyond recognition. They may be the majority, but that simply identifies them as the "majority anti-Christ apostate religion prophesied for these latter days." That should worry you, Vizio.
That is because Biblical Christianity is NOT Christ's Christianity. Those councils corrupted Christ's Gospel beyond recognition. They may be the majority, but that simply identifies them as the "majority anti-Christ apostate religion prophesied for these latter days." That should worry you, Vizio.
About 1.99 billion Christians worldwide haven't gotten the memo.
Thankfully the Christian God has sent new prophets like you to put them on the right path.
I think you are unwittingly helping to make the OP's point.
Well, since my first post in this thread was to tell the OP, "Yup, you pretty much hit the nail on the head," my comment to Viz was not made unwittingly, but as an example of how the OP was right.
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