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Mind you--I'm not going after you specifically. If you want to take offense at it and think that I was...so be it. You'd be wrong.
Okay, fair enough.
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I'm not sure this is really the place to begin listing off the issues with your church.
Take it easy, Vizio. I didn't even ask you to "list off the issues [you have] with my church," so you're off the hook there. What I asked for was for you to tell me the doctrines the apostles died for. You can begin by answering that very simple question, rather than by dodging it.
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But it can be said that in the almost 200 years your church has been around, they have only recently even tried to call themselves main-stream Christians.
That's bull$hit. My Church has claimed to be Christian since its founding in 1830.
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Your founder was quite open about the fact that he thought all of Christianity was apostate and that your church had NOTHING in common with them.
Joseph Smith never once said that Mormonism had NOTHING in common with other Christian denominations. And for the record, Martin Luther and the other Protestant Reformers pretty much said the same thing about Catholicism (i.e. that it was apostate). Here are a few of their comments:
“I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been… absolutely destroyed… I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.” (Martin Luther, as quoted in Luther and His Times, page 509)
“[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking.” (Roger Williams, as quoted in Picturesque America, or the Land We Live In; edited by William Cullen Bryant; 1872)
“It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries…. From this time… the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church… The Christians… only had a dead form [of Christianity] left.” (John Wesley, as quoted in John Wesley’s Works, volume 7)
So why did the Christian God wait 1800 years to give humanity the "complete" revelation via Joseph Smith? And then why did he wait another 200 years to tell us via MysticPhD that the previous 2000 years of Christianity were all wrong?
The Christian God seems to change his mind a lot, and seems to say different things to different people. He ends up causing a lot of confusion and conflict with these shenanigans.
Why doesn't the Christian God put an end to all of the confusion by taking over the Internet and all radio and tv stations? He could give humanity a set of unambiguous instructions and commands which are not open to interpretation. Think of all of the conflict that doing so would end. And billions of eternal souls are at stake. All of this doctrinal confusion is causing real people to become eternally damned, including atheists like myself.
But we hear nothing. Just silence from the Christisn God, and endless conflicting noise from his self-appointed mouthpieces here on earth.
Apparently some people look at the varieties of Christianity and see division, which is certainly there. But I see diversity of opinions, which is not a bad thing. Even if you were to poll people inside the same building on a Sunday morning what they believe, you will get many different answers. Each individual, not just each denomination, or each house of worship, is different. Some will use that as proof that "they can't all be right", but I find value in differences of opinion. I also see beauty and freedom in diversity.
So why did the Christian God wait 1800 years to give humanity the "complete" revelation via Joseph Smith? And then why did he wait another 200 years to tell us via MysticPhD that the previous 2000 years of Christianity were all wrong?
The Christian God seems to change his mind a lot, and seems to say different things to different people. He ends up causing a lot of confusion and conflict with these shenanigans.
Why doesn't the Christian God put an end to all of the confusion by taking over the Internet and all radio and tv stations? He could give humanity a set of unambiguous instructions and commands which are not open to interpretation. Think of all of the conflict that doing so would end. And billions of eternal souls are at stake. All of this doctrinal confusion is causing real people to become eternally damned, including atheists like myself.
But we hear nothing. Just silence from the Christisn God, and endless conflicting noise from his self-appointed mouthpieces here on earth.
As Kurt so wisely opined a time or thirty: "And so it goes."
But Freak my friend, consider where you, mordant, pleroo, NoCapo, L8, pcamps and other former fundies were at one time, headspace-wise.
And you escaped!
And without exception, every one of you is glad for the metamorphosis you experienced, despite the pain of transition.
And every time one or more of you tell your story, a bell will ring in The Heaven Of Reason indicating that yet another fundie has fumbled his/her way out of the dark!
Or so the ghost of Jimmy Stewart mumbled in my ear one night during my 17th re-watching of It's A Wonderful Life.
Apparently there are 2.2 billion Christians worldwide at least claiming that title. There cannot be real stats on how many so-called Christians are phoney balonies or as scripture refers to them as "lukewarm" soon to be again according to scripture spewed ( vomited) into Tribulation. To venture a guess I would be too judgmental and perhaps I myself can be classified as lukewarm. ( some believe we should not even judge ourselves). Are you saved?.......oh yeah I'm saved.....really?( In fairness we do know the formula) Considering how many of us are sinners it's best to clean our threshold and look in the mirror. Christians are a great people attempting to maintain a direct relationship with Jesus Christ. Some are philosopher wannabees , odd and severely ignorant, while others via group bible study, church and media ( TV evangelism / teachers) outside reading are pretty savy.They are a minority of real "practicing" Christians with an overcoming spirit to dilute sin, giving loving ,forgiving, stewardship oriented ,bless Israel ,prepare for end-times and prayer to enhance their faith.
Apparently there are 2.2 billion Christians worldwide at least claiming that title. There cannot be real stats on how many so-called Christians are phoney balonies or as scripture refers to them as "lukewarm" soon to be again according to scripture spewed ( vomited) into Tribulation. To venture a guess I would be too judgmental and perhaps I myself can be classified as lukewarm. ( some believe we should not even judge ourselves). Are you saved?.......oh yeah I'm saved.....really?( In fairness we do know the formula) Considering how many of us are sinners it's best to clean our threshold and look in the mirror. Christians are a great people attempting to maintain a direct relationship with Jesus Christ. Some are philosopher wannabees , odd and severely ignorant, while others via group bible study, church and media ( TV evangelism / teachers) outside reading are pretty savy.They are a minority of real "practicing" Christians with an overcoming spirit to dilute sin, giving loving ,forgiving, stewardship oriented ,bless Israel ,prepare for end-times and prayer to enhance their faith.
For starters, realize that doctrine matters. It's ok to say that some folks are not in agreement with us. It's ok to say that some people are not Christians.
Of course he's able to. The question is why he doesn't. I would say for the same reason that not all of Israel was actually devoted to him, despite the nation being his chosen people.
Read the books of Exodus, Numbers, Judges, Joshua. There were some devoted, but there were many that simply did not care to worship their God and follow his commands. At times Israel failed to do so quite miserably. Ultimately, it glorified God because he sent his Messiah through this nation of backsliders anyway. Not because of what they did...but because of who he is.
That doesn't answer the question - unless it was to invite us to presume there isn't a god there or not at least one who actually does anything to keep his creation in order. But I don't suppose that was what you wanted us to assume. so what was it, other than (I guess) "God has his reasons even if we can't understand them"? Which is not an explanation but an avoidance of an admission of not having a good explanation.
I was going to rip apart the claim that sending Jesus to be denied (even up to the present) by Israel somehow means Israel was glorified by it, but anyone who can't see through such stuff won't benefit from my efforts.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-16-2016 at 05:25 AM..
I'm not discussing Mormonism on this thread, except to the extent that it relates to the OP. Your question is irrelevant to the discussion.
That is a valid observation, yet you have entered into discussion of it and Freak's question is a valid one, though I suppose "God has his reasons" is always a good fallback explanation.
P.s No sorry - you were discussing whether Christians were Christians through certan core beliefs (for Paul it was believing that Jesus was the resurrected messiah and that was it - provided one didn't sin too badly) or even saying that one was a Christian, or not.
So I withdraw my objection and agree we should stay on topic, if possible.
I'm not discussing Mormonism on this thread, except to the extent that it relates to the OP. Your question is irrelevant to the discussion.
It's ok, it was a rhetorical question.
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