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I love to see your mind at work, Gaylen. It is a marvel of expository rumination. I think, as you seem to imply at the end, that if you eliminated the word "physical" and simply used the "one stuff" ontology the distinction of "physical" minds would disappear as everything is just different vibratory manifestations of the "one stuff." In a sense, it could all be just "imagination" in God's consciousness designed to create and parse the cognitive concepts of good and evil, right and wrong, love and hate, kindness and cruelty, etc. as mstelm implies but to be honest, I am way out on a limb with this ideation.
You are. 'One stuff' indeed seem (at base) to be what it has to be - matter an energy alike. What that means is that Physical is what it all is rather than making mental different from physical. Add to that the 'brain in a vat' idea (which I think can be shown to less probable than reality existing of itself) and you have there two dubious if not to say illogical ideas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstelm
At any rate Im looking foward to seeing ifmy post was helpful gaylenwoofs thought line
I do hope, Len, mate, that you found those posts illuminating, informative and instructive to someone with a mere Master's degree (as you put it) in this crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof
So I think you are saying that my "unconscious" is, really, God's consciousness. Ok. I can respect that. I am open to the idea that "unconscious" is a matter of perspective. What's unconscious from one perspective may be conscious from another. (I don't believe that's true, but I see it as a reasonable proposition.) My pre-processing would seem unconscious from my conscious perspective, but the qualitative feelings of my conscious experience would just be the delayed conscious "brain time" version of what happened in the prior "quantum time" of the pre-processing phase. So, basically, the feeling of not knowing where a conscious thought comes from (the feeling that it comes from an "unconscious" source) is, in effect, due to a sort of amnesia. The quantum-time-based pre-processing was, in fact, conscious in itself (probably, technically, as God's consciousness), in the context of its own quantum time, but the conscious feelings of that time are forgotten during the delayed re-processing that constitutes "brain time" consciousness. Thus the quantum-time consciousness is experienced, phenomenologically via brain activity, as an unknown/unconscious origin of thought. Whew! I'll have to think about that.
I'm still a bit concerned about a logical self-reference problem leading to a treadmill of infinite regress. Setting aside all issues of physics - since, presumably, God's mind (and/or my true Self) would not be physical - I'm still skeptical of the idea that consciousness can always come from consciousness. But I suppose that an infinite regress is not necessarily a problem if we are dealing with an infinite, non-physical mind. I'll have to ruminate on this for a while.
BTW: One question still plaguing me is this: If God's mind is an infinite, conscious, non-physical mind, then why bother with a physical world? Especially a physical world with so much suffering? I think, somehow, the physical world has to be either logically necessary, given the correct conception (understanding/metaphysical model) of God's non-physical mind, or some sort of brute fact that even God does not have the power to change. (And, just for clarity: This is a genuine question that I can't answer - not a rhetorical question. Of course, if I am correct in believing that all conscious minds are actually physical processes, then it is, ultimately, a non-question. But since I'm agnostic, it is a genuine alternative assumption-based question that I want to seriously consider.)
That indeed takes some thinking about and yes Mystic believes that the Unconscious mind is the 'Universal field' Aka God. This ran into a few problems.
The problem of incorrect messages and and dead or damaged brain not caving any messages at all. Thus Mystic postulated the Radio - analogy. The brain did not originate the messages but received them and damage or cutting the power would distort the message.
You will see immediately that a brain originating the 'messages' is actually simpler, and I can tell you that the unconscious or subconscious mind in dreams CAN at times be controlled by my watching conscious mind.
This also brings up the problem of the carnal mind, which Mystic used a Grampa -like diagram with symbolic shapes of the bits of the brain relating to the Eden story to illustrate this 'Carnal' and 'Cosmic' mind
The problem was the Unconscious mind is supposed to be the cosmic mental field Aka God and the conscious mind is the Carnal one.
I argued that the unconscious mind is the instinctive one and, while it usefully handles automatic survival reactions (instincts (1), it is not rational. The 'Angelic' aspect of the human mind is in fact the conscious mind. It is rational, logical and considering (or is capable of being so) and thus it reverses the whole Mystic theory of God's revelations by cosmic radio on its' head.
He has heard this before, but simply "Forgets" it. My memory is better.
I could also talk of the problem of Animal Consciousness which makes a theory of consciousness evolving from mere Reaction, as life did - by evolution, more probable that Consciousness being a fully developed mind that didn't need to evolve.
And as to infinite regress, it is still the same problem that all the Goddunnit -claims run into. You can perhaps come down to a non- created nothingness that does have the ability to take up mutually exclusive patters which act like particles and can become in time the illusion we call "solid matter". But the idea of a highly advanced being that itself didn't need to come from anywhere is far less plausible.
This is why Something from Nothing nearly solves the origins problem while Goddunnit only creates more problems.
You may recall that you thought a disembodied mind could not exist and I thought logically it could, but it would need to have been formed in solid being and could exist after it had died. So a purely mental (the believers like to call that 'spirit' as it sounds more Impressive, not to say, reverential) could possible logically exist, but it would have had to evolved somehow.and would require a body to do it. That make God as the origin of everything really problematical.
Cosmic origins is a gap for God that has almost vanished, and indeed it almost has for Abiogenesis and "Consciousness" is really the best gap for god they have left (Morality) have closed in their face forever.
(1) I have a Theory....that the unconscious (instinctive) mind and the conscious (problem solving) mind was reflected in the dinosaurs by the brain it had, proverbially, the size of a walnut in its' head, but a much bigger brain in its' ass to action the instincts, reactions and locomotion.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-02-2018 at 05:07 AM..
You are. 'One stuff' indeed seem (at base) to be what it has to be - matter an energy alike. What that means is that Physical is what it all is rather than making mental different from physical. Add to that the 'brain in a vat' idea (which I think can be shown to less probable than reality existing of itself) and you have there two dubious if not to say illogical ideas.
I do hope, Len, mate, that you found those posts illuminating, informative and instructive to someone with a mere Master's degree (as you put it) in this crap.
That indeed takes some thinking about and yes Mystic believes that the Unconscious mind is the 'Universal field' Aka God. This ran into a few problems.
The problem of incorrect messages and and dead or damaged brain not caving any messages at all. Thus Mystic postulated the Radio - analogy. The brain did not originate the messages but received them and damage or cutting the power would distort the message.
You will see immediately that a brain originating the 'messages' is actually simpler, and I can tell you that the unconscious or subconscious mind in dreams CAN at times be controlled by my watching conscious mind.
This also brings up the problem of the carnal mind, which Mystic used a Grampa -like diagram with symbolic shapes of the bits of the brain relating to the Eden story to illustrate this 'Carnal' and 'Cosmic' mind
The problem was the Unconscious mind is supposed to be the cosmic mental field Aka God and the conscious mind is the Carnal one.
I argued that the unconscious mind is the instinctive one and, while it usefully handles automatic survival reactions (instincts (1), it is not rational. The 'Angelic' aspect of the human mind is in fact the conscious mind. It is rational, logical and considering (or is capable of being so) and thus it reverses the whole Mystic theory of God's revelations by cosmic radio on its' head.
He has heard this before, but simply "Forgets" it. My memory is better.
I could also talk of the problem of Animal Consciousness which makes a theory of consciousness evolving from mere Reaction, as life did - by evolution, more probable that Consciousness being a fully developed mind that didn't need to evolve.
And as to infinite regress, it is still the same problem that all the Goddunnit -claims run into. You can perhaps come down to a non- created nothingness that does have the ability to take up mutually exclusive patters which act like particles and can become in time the illusion we call "solid matter". But the idea of a highly advanced being that itself didn't need to come from anywhere is far less plausible.
This is why Something from Nothing nearly solves the origins problem while Goddunnit only creates more problems.
You may recall that you thought a disembodied mind could not exist and I thought logically it could, but it would need to have been formed in solid being and could exist after it had died. So a purely mental (the believers like to call that 'spirit' as it sounds more Impressive, not to say, reverential) could possible logically exist, but it would have had to evolved somehow.and would require a body to do it. That make God as the origin of everything really problematical.
Cosmic origins is a gap for God that has almost vanished, and indeed it almost has for Abiogenesis and "Consciousness" is really the best gap for god they have left (Morality) have closed in their face forever.
(1) I have a Theory....that the unconscious (instinctive) mind and the conscious (problem solving) mind was reflected in the dinosaurs by the brain it had, proverbially, the size of a walnut in its' head, but a much bigger brain in its' ass to action the instincts, reactions and locomotion.
"born" actually solves the problem better than 'from nothing'. 'from 'something" is even a little more valid than from nothing.
of course, I can see how you need to focus on a statement of belief about god. with that limit, your argument becomes tenable. Just like the theist arguments are tenable when we assume we are born sinners. with those starting a starting "if' (made up as it may be), and philosopher's logic, we can make that stuff real.
so make up stuff as we go to support a statement of belief. Who cares how it actually works, "how does it affect me" is the most important thing some people gotz.
That indeed takes some thinking about and yes Mystic believes that the Unconscious mind is the 'Universal field' Aka God. This ran into a few problems.
Perhaps Mystic can join me in reading Sean Corrolls new book, Something Deeply Hidden (2019). This book will be about quantum mechanics, many worlds and the emergence of spacetime.
Last edited by Matadora; 06-03-2018 at 12:37 PM..
Reason: spelling
Perhaps Mystic can join me in reading Sean Corrolls new book, Something Deeply Hidden (2019). This book will be about quantum mechanics, many worlds and the emergence of spacetime.
Sounds interesting. That would be the physicist Sean M Carroll, not the biologist Sean B
You are. 'One stuff' indeed seem (at base) to be what it has to be - matter an energy alike. What that means is that Physical is what it all is rather than making mental different from physical. Add to that the 'brain in a vat' idea (which I think can be shown to less probable than reality existing of itself) and you have there two dubious if not to say illogical ideas.
That indeed takes some thinking about and yes Mystic believes that the Unconscious mind is the 'Universal field' Aka God. This ran into a few problems.
It did not run into any problems, Arq. Your mind incorrectly translated analogy into the nearest thing you could comprehend and that had problems because it was wrong.
Quote:
The problem of incorrect messages and dead or damaged brain not caving any messages at all. Thus Mystic postulated the Radio - analogy. The brain did not originate the messages but received them and damage or cutting the power would distort the message.
You seem to have difficulty with the concept of a transceiver which is BOTH a production facility and a receiver. YOU interpreted it as a Radio analogy because you have no clue about the spherical standing wave nature of the "one stuff" that manifests as what you call matter. Each human brain is the locus of the spherical standing wave manifesting as our consciousness while it is being produced. It is also the playback station for the recordings of that production and the receiver of our unconscious that we experience after the fact at our level of existence. I repeat, everything including your matter is comprised of the "one stuff" manifesting in different aggregate spherical standing waveforms. That includes our consciousness that you think is just a fleeting illusion but which accumulates as our unconscious Self within the unified field (God's consciousness). The brain is the transceiver necessary for our unconscious Self to influence the continued production of consciousness and to manifest it at our level of existence.
It did not run into any problems, Arq. Your mind incorrectly translated analogy into the nearest thing you could comprehend and that had problems because it was wrong.
You certainly ran into problems and I pointed out your misunderstanding of the mass-energy equivalence. Not only that but you made so many inaccurate claims about particle physics and particles with respect to their mass.
You certainly ran into problems and I pointed out your misunderstanding of the mass-energy equivalence. Not only that but you made so many inaccurate claims about particle physics and particles with respect to their mass.
::Sigh:: That is such a blatant lie from someone who should know better.
::Sigh:: That is such a blatant lie from someone who should know better.
Well let me refresh your memory about your false claims about particle physics and the mass of particles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Obviously, quantum field theory deals with particles and so it does not use mass because they cannot measure any such thing.
You made TWO inaccurate statements here.
First extremely inaccurate statement: "quantum field theory deals with particles and so it does not use mass"
This is not accurate because particle physicists relies on being able to identify a particle and this is done is by determining the mass of the particle.
Second extremely inaccurate statement: " because they cannot measure any such thing"
This is not accurate because they can measure the mass of the particle.
How do they do this?
When a charged particle travels faster than light does through a given medium, it emits Cherenkov radiation at an angle that depends on its velocity. The particle's velocity can be calculated from this angle.
***Velocity can then be combined with a measure of the particle's momentum to determine its *mass*, and therefore its identity.***
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to illustrate this 'Carnal' and 'Cosmic' mind
it. My memory is better.
