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No but you did say that he'll is the place we have to be held responsible for our deeds. Do you believe that if we are basically good that we will not go to hell regardless of what we believe or do not believe? Would we go to heaven regardless of our belief or lack thereof?
Do you consider taking responsibility for your actions as an adult "sadistic" ? Do you consider facing natural consequences for your choices as "sadistic" ? Do you consider being held accountable for the way you treat others as "sadistic" ?
I think it is part of being a responsible mature adult.
If someone robs a bank or commits assault and battery, they go to prison. Is that sadistic or natural consequences for their actions?
I think your comparing earthly justice with hell is perposterous. I'm amazed at how disconnected from reality many religious are when it comes to hell. The concept is purely sadistic and beyond evil. It says much about the rationale of a person who ever considers it viable and just. After taking my rose colored glasses off, I scrutinized this doctrine and found it not to be biblical. Yet, most Christians will just blindly accept it, believe it and condone it, very sad.
If someone robs a bank or commits assault and battery, they go to prison. Is that sadistic or natural consequences for their actions?
That's not a "natural" consequence. That's punishment.
"Natural consequences" aren't something imposed by other people. They are simply the inevitable results of some action that has been taken. It is not inevitable that someone who commits a crime is going to prison.
I'm not sure what you think "hell" is, but if it's punishment imposed by God, that's not a natural consequence either.
I think your comparing earthly justice with hell is perposterous. I'm amazed at how disconnected from reality many religious are when it comes to hell. The concept is purely sadistic and beyond evil. It says much about the rationale of a person who ever considers it viable and just. After taking my rose colored glasses off, I scrutinized this doctrine and found it not to be biblical. Yet, most Christians will just blindly accept it, believe it and condone it, very sad.
You said it better than I could. It also seems to go directly against the claim that God and Jesus is about unconditional love. Dogs are about unconditional love and people are no way as loving as dogs. As I understand the concept God sends us down to Earth and gives us free will because he loves us but tells us how we must think or act or else he will torture us for eternity. And people who assume they are going to be in Heaven try to get us to be more like them by telling us we will be tortured if we are not. Or we will go to Hell if we are not of the correct flavour of a religion. And all of this is about love?
I know I have not been perfect in my live but anyone who would think that I , or anyone similar, would deserve an eternity in Hell is a saddistic person who also envisions their concept of a god as one who is saddistic as well. And for the religious, I am not judging God, I am judging your concept of your god. No capital g for God because I am not referring to any god in particular.
That's not a "natural" consequence. That's punishment.
"Natural consequences" aren't something imposed by other people.They are simply the inevitable results of some action that has been taken. It is not inevitable that someone who commits a crime is going to prison.
I'm not sure what you think "hell" is, but if it's punishment imposed by God, that's not a natural consequence either.
part of natural consequences in our modern society is laws and what happens when people break laws. If you hit a co-worker, and they have you arrested for assault, that is a natural consequence of your actions. And yes, it is imposed by other people. It is imposed by the law enforcement and the judicial system in the city and state and country you live in.
I think your comparing earthly justice with hell is perposterous. I'm amazed at how disconnected from reality many religious are when it comes to hell. The concept is purely sadistic and beyond evil. It says much about the rationale of a person who ever considers it viable and just. After taking my rose colored glasses off, I scrutinized this doctrine and found it not to be biblical. Yet, most Christians will just blindly accept it, believe it and condone it, very sad.
there is nothing preposterous about acting like a grown up
and who said it is eternal?
it is until we learn to not do it and we stop doing it.
If we keep engaging in disruptive behavior, we are going to keep experiencing the natural consequences of our actions.
once we stop a disruptive behavior, the natural consequences stop.
that is rational and reasonable.
there is nothing "preposterous" about taking responsibility for our actions. It is maturity, it is accountability, it is responsibility.
As with the terminator, I would think that once the red light goes out, so would our capacity to think.
During the discussion on consciousness after death with Gaylenwoof, it rather looked as though, in view of the evidence that matter/enegy is just particles as near virtual as makes no difference, doing their thing, there is no plausible reason that I could see why a disimbodied mind shouldn't continue to work, exist and have a very prolonged if not immortal existence after decease of the bod. (The flame analogy did not work, but I'll leave that).
At the same time, in order to provide the matter -template for that mind, there had to be a material mind for it to form on. Thus you can have an immaterial mind after death but not before.
That is purely theoretical. I haven't seen any decent evidence to convince me, though I am watching NDE -research with interest. However the sheer nature of the visions fills me with doubts
You said it better than I could. It also seems to go directly against the claim that God and Jesus is about unconditional love. Dogs are about unconditional love and people are no way as loving as dogs. As I understand the concept God sends us down to Earth and gives us free will because he loves us but tells us how we must think or act or else he will torture us for eternity. And people who assume they are going to be in Heaven try to get us to be more like them by telling us we will be tortured if we are not. Or we will go to Hell if we are not of the correct flavour of a religion. And all of this is about love?
I know I have not been perfect in my live but anyone who would think that I , or anyone similar, would deserve an eternity in Hell is a saddistic person who also envisions their concept of a god as one who is saddistic as well. And for the religious, I am not judging God, I am judging your concept of your god. No capital g for God because I am not referring to any god in particular.
its not about eternity
but if you keep repeating a behavior you are going to keep experiencing the natural consequences of your actions
that is how we learn accountability and responsibility
what is so hard about natural consequences, cause and effect, being a responsible mature adult?
it is entirely and completely in your hands
easy peasy
part of natural consequences in our modern society is laws and what happens when people break laws. If you hit a co-worker, and they have you arrested for assault, that is a natural consequence of your actions. And yes, it is imposed by other people. It is imposed by the law enforcement and the judicial system in the city and state and country you live in.
No it is a consequence imposed by thinking people, not by unthinking nature. There is a distinction between what bad happens to us by accident for no reason and with no lesson other than be careful, and build a solid house.
Rules imposed by society or by a deity have consequences with a reason behind them and, as pieroo rightly points out - that is not 'natural'.
I presume that the argument is somehow intended to get God off the hook by pretending he is no more to blame for bad that happens to us during life and in the posulated afterlife than if we get hit by a meteorite
That is clearly not going to work, and in fact works against God because he could prevent the meteorite hitting someone relatively undeserving, while a few I Could Name who could only be improved by a smoking hole through he head continue to thrive
The 'natural consequences' argument not only does not get God off the hook -it puts him squarely on it.
The only way out without the usual display of dishonest wriggling, theophanic houpla and rhetorical writhing is o bit to bullet and say "Well, God can do whatever he likes, and what are you going o do about it, eh"
Which is unanswerable, other than to say it stinks.
Dark matter had a couple of vids dealing with the argument that it wasn't murder, because the victim had a Choice. I'll try to find one.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-15-2017 at 11:12 AM..
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