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So, given the situation the family were in, what else do you think they would be praying and praising for... other than for their god to save them. A new car perhaps? For their team to win the ball game? To find the house keys? What result do you honestly think they were praying and praising fo if not to be saved from the flooding?
Yes she did. Read it again.
"We prayed all night and after praising God, we were saved."
What else do you think she meant??
Raf, I'm not here to argue with you about what the woman meant or didn't mean -- I simply pointed out that it's possible she didn't mean all the things you inferred, but if she did, okay -- It's just not a big deal to me. That was all an aside and irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned, to the point I was making. I explained to Imiss that I asked you the question I did about gratitude to point out that practicing gratitude can be a point of commonality, regardless of religious beliefs or lack thereof.
Raf, I'm not here to argue with you about what the woman meant or didn't mean -- I simply pointed out that it's possible she didn't mean all the things you inferred, ...
I would think that her meaning would be clear enough to most people...
"We prayed all night and after praising God, we were saved."
...is saying, 'I thought we were going to perish so we prayed all night for God to save us and after praising him, he saved us.'
I'm going to post again what Rafius said that the woman said:
"We prayed all night and after praising god, we were saved."
Now, unless the person said more than that, or said it differently than Rafius reported, you are both making assumptions about what she believes.
She didn't say God saved them because they prayed. She didn't say they were saved because they were a certain religion. She didn't even say God saved them. She simply said they prayed, they praised, and they were saved.
If she didn't believe God had something to do with it, she wouldn't have said it. Let's face it, regardless of her beliefs, she said "We prayed all night and after praising god, we were saved." I am not sure how you can take that any way other than, "We prayed to God, and God saved us". I just don't see how you can.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
To be fair, it's not long ago that I may have made the same assumptions that you and Raf seem to be about what this woman meant. But not all people who believe in God believe the things that you are assuming.
I don't think we are assuming anything. Why mention God at all if she didn't think God did anything? That would be kinda dumb, wouldn't it? It would be like saying, "Well, I hit my foot with a hammer last night, and after all night with my toes hurting, we were saved!". Why mention it if you don't believe it had any bearing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
All that being said, I personally was moved by the fact that she said they "praised", which to me is another way of saying that they were grateful within the midst of their circumstances regardless of what the outcome would be. I was moved by it, because I believe that gratitude is an invaluable thing to practice. And, since I know that one does not need to be a believer in God to practice gratitude (which was the point of my question to Rafius), I find it a point of commonality, regardless of one's religious beliefs or lack thereof.
So, given the situation the family were in, what else do you think they would be praying and praising for... other than for their god to save them. A new car perhaps? For their team to win the ball game? To find the house keys? What result do you honestly think they were praying and praising fo if not to be saved from the flooding?
Yes she did. Read it again. "We prayed all night and after praising God, we were saved." What else do you think she meant??
Looking at her statement objectively and without presumption, she stated three separate events. They prayed all night (for God to comfort them in their travail). They praised God (for providing them comfort ). They were saved (some neighbors or rescuers saved them). Why are they not equally plausible interpretations of what she meant?
Looking at her statement objectively and without presumption, she stated three separate events. They prayed all night (for God to comfort them in their travail). They praised God (for providing them comfort ). They were saved (some neighbors or rescuers saved them). Why are they not equally plausible interpretations of what she meant?
Well, I can't speak for Raf obviously, but for me, it is simply the fact that she mentions God at all that says she is attributing being saved to him. It would be like me saying, "We listened to the Foo Fighters, and then praised Dave Grohl, and then we were saved." What does one have to do with the other?
Now, if she was asked, "What did you do last night?", and responded by saying, "Well, we prayed and praised God, tried to stay dry, and tried to get a little sleep until the first responders showed up to save us," then okay. She didn't do that though. It is fairly obvious she meant, "We prayed to God, and God saved us."
Either way, the point of the thread remains. How funny is it that ALL gods seem to answer prayers equally?
Looking at her statement objectively and without presumption, she stated three separate events. They prayed all night (for God to comfort them in their travail). They praised God (for providing them comfort ). They were saved (some neighbors or rescuers saved them). Why are they not equally plausible interpretations of what she meant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
Well, I can't speak for Raf obviously, but for me, it is simply the fact that she mentions God at all that says she is attributing being saved to him. It would be like me saying, "We listened to the Foo Fighters, and then praised Dave Grohl, and then we were saved." What does one have to do with the other?
That is a presumption, not objective interpretation.
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Now, if she was asked, "What did you do last night?", and responded by saying, "Well, we prayed and praised God, tried to stay dry, and tried to get a little sleep until the first responders showed up to save us," then okay. She didn't do that though. It is fairly obvious she meant, "We prayed to God, and God saved us."
In the absence of her specifically saying God saved us, your interpretation remains presumptuous.
Quote:
Either way, the point of the thread remains. How funny is it that ALL gods seem to answer prayers equally?
Well, that depends entirely on how one perceives answered prayers.
That is a presumption, not objective interpretation. In the absence of her specifically saying God saved us, your interpretation remains presumptuous. Well, that depends entirely on how one perceives answered prayers.
It is a presumption to say she meant anything. Some presumptions seem to be closer to the truth than others, however. She wouldn't have mentioned it if she didn't mean it that way. Otherwise it just sounds dumb, as I have pointed out.
As far as answered prayers, of course it depends. That is the crux of the issue, isn't it? Betty down the street may think she is getting her prayers answered when she buys herself a new Lexus. On the other hand, there are people starving to death who think God is answering their prayers when they are able to eat a meal for the first time in a week, never stopping to ask themselves why he doesn't help them the other 6 days.
It is quite funny, as the OP says, that everyone believes their prayers are being answered when something good happens. Even if they already knew it would. For instance, a lady I work with was telling us all about how she had been praying night and day to get a good raise when her evaluation came up in a few weeks. Well, when she got her raise, she was all like, "See, God is good! He answers prayers when you need him to!" etc.
Fact is though, it was a small raise (probably only gave her about $10 extra a week, before taxes), and the company I work for gives raises to everyone, every year. If you don't get a raise, you aren't with the company anymore. In other words, she KNEW she would be getting a raise, yet attributed it to God anyways.
The point remains though, that no matter what God you believe in, prayers seem to be answered in the same way. Random happenstance. It is almost as if there is nothing answering them, and instead it is simply random...
If she didn't believe God had something to do with it, she wouldn't have said it. Let's face it, regardless of her beliefs, she said "We prayed all night and after praising god, we were saved." I am not sure how you can take that any way other than, "We prayed to God, and God saved us". I just don't see how you can.
I don't think we are assuming anything. Why mention God at all if she didn't think God did anything? That would be kinda dumb, wouldn't it? It would be like saying, "Well, I hit my foot with a hammer last night, and after all night with my toes hurting, we were saved!". Why mention it if you don't believe it had any bearing?
Precisely old horse! There is no other logical way of looking at it.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Looking at her statement objectively and without presumption, she stated three separate events. They prayed all night (for God to comfort them in their travail). They praised God (for providing them comfort ). They were saved (some neighbors or rescuers saved them). Why are they not equally plausible interpretations of what she meant?
Oh shut up!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
Well, I can't speak for Raf obviously, but for me, it is simply the fact that she mentions God at all that says she is attributing being saved to him. It would be like me saying, "We listened to the Foo Fighters, and then praised Dave Grohl, and then we were saved." What does one have to do with the other?
Now, if she was asked, "What did you do last night?", and responded by saying, "Well, we prayed and praised God, tried to stay dry, and tried to get a little sleep until the first responders showed up to save us," then okay. She didn't do that though. It is fairly obvious she meant, "We prayed to God, and God saved us."
It's so obvious my dear old toad.
Quote:
Either way, the point of the thread remains. How funny is it that ALL gods seem to answer prayers equally?
Looking at her statement objectively and without presumption, she stated three separate events. They prayed all night (for God to comfort them in their travail). They praised God (for providing them comfort ). They were saved (some neighbors or rescuers saved them). Why are they not equally plausible interpretations of what she meant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Oh shut up!
Whoa! The Rafe is speechless in the face of objective analysis - a sign that his reliance on objective evidence and reason is somewhat flawed.
<snipped>
All that being said, I personally was moved by the fact that she said they "praised", which to me is another way of saying that they were grateful within the midst of their circumstances regardless of what the outcome would be. I was moved by it, because I believe that gratitude is an invaluable thing to practice. And, since I know that one does not need to be a believer in God to practice gratitude (which was the point of my question to Rafius), I find it a point of commonality, regardless of one's religious beliefs or lack thereof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
...
No disagreement here.
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The Rafe is speechless in the face of objective analysis - a sign that his reliance on objective evidence and reason is somewhat flawed.
