Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have never sinned against God. The idea is ludicrous. I have never considered God to be toothless, or corrupt, either. I have never suggested such a thing.
I do not need God's forgiveness. We are old friends. I do not think Steven Hawking is looking for forgiveness either.
Exactly he wasn't spiritually gifted,his realm was science,logic and physics that's one lens from which to view the world,a mythopoeic view like the bible is another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
What's so funny? He didn't pursue or try to understand spirituality, so.... he likely had no experience with it. Duh
I think some are getting Hawking confused with Richard Dawkins, who's been a lot more outspoken about this. Hawking was about science and astrophysics. He spoke about God in a more metaphorical sense, something closer to my own concept of spirituality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing too. In fact, I had to double-check the Internet to remind myself who Stephen Hawking was (I clearly knew who Dawkins was). As for this forum and topic, Richard Dawkins is the one who's more applicable.
I expected there may be some confusion with Richard Dawkins, who is a much more militant atheist.
But Dawkins views are not relevant here, we are talking about Hawking, whose ideas are less controversial.
If you read the Washington Post article, Hawking is quite thoughtful and analytical in his views.
Comments like this:
“I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science,” he said. “The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.”
Similarly God does not intervene in a lot of things, things still follow a natural process, even if the end result is not always good.
Moreover, he may be now in a state of total disbelief.
But whether he should fry for his sins, I don't believe that is just in any way, and he can be purified.
Certainly Hawking had achieved a stage of spirituality - Stage III - which is more advanced than those with blind faith in a fundamentalist religion:
"Stage III - Skeptic, Individual, questioner, including atheists, agnostics and those scientifically minded who demand a measurable, well researched and logical explanation"
What I don't know is whether Hawking had reached Stage IV: Mysticism. Mysticism implies some belief in God or a higher power, but to quote from Peck:
"Mysticism also obviously has to do with mystery. Mystics acknowledge the enormity of the unknown, but rather than being frightened by it, they seek to penetrate ever deeper into it that they may understand more--even with the realization that the more they understand, the greater the mystery will become. They love mystery, in dramatic contrast to those in Stage II...."
This would seem an apt description of Stephen Hawking's persona.
You may be right, but I have my doubts. I see it not as a stage of development but a mental choice.
(a) believe whatever you like
(b) credit whatever seems reasonably verified.
The actuality of the mystical stuff is well verified. What it Is is a matter of
(a) speculation, (b) research.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Read Job 40. You’re the main character.
...in a fairy tale. And as nasty a one as I ever read.
"Yep".
It's pretty lowdown to convert without permission people on their deathbed or after it, and we do not accept such unvalidated faith -claim for a second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiethegreat
Exactly he wasn't spiritually gifted,his realm was science,logic and physics that's one lens from which to view the world,a mythopoeic view like the bible is another.
Again, I have to disagree. Not on the Bible. believing it as reliably true is myopic rather than mythopoeic. But it is no kind of Higher Wisdom to engage in fanciful speculations (based perhaps of how brain - jigging enzyme squirted into your brain during times of prayer or meditation make you feel) and claim them as revealed truth.
This is a very common fallacy, and a highly popular one (appeal to unknowns amongst the religious, the Mystical, the cultist, the fringe -scientist and the tinfoil-wearing nutcase. Hawking was wise in refusing to let speculations be anything more than hypotheses to check and until verified, remain hypotheses.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-15-2018 at 05:39 PM..
May I say how deeply impressed I am (not) by your response to Shirina's spanking post with little more than "I don't care what you say..."
I only mention it so that the 10,000 per day browzers will see how dreadfully poor, blinkered and conceited are the worst of Theistic responses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
What's so funny? He didn't pursue or try to understand spirituality, so.... he likely had no experience with it. Duh
Probably not. Just as a medical expert researching into leprosy or cancer may have no direct experience of it either. But he can find out more about it by researching on subjects than by catching the disease himself.
I have in mind here the mental research going on into the workings of the brain, the effect or prayer and meditation, and the debate about NDEs. And what I see is a lot of Believers trying to get the conclusion accepted on the basis of claims about the data, and never mind the research. It's akin to the lepers or cancer patient being told 'You got this because you had lustful thoughts' or 'God inflicted this on you to give you the opportunity to Turn to Him, and then he will make the cancer vanish." (or so the Snopesfail anecdotes go).
But Hawking was not a mental specialist but a physicist, and for my money went far, far beyond the funny feelings plus free speculation that the "Spiritual" are pleased to claim as advanced wisdom.
Foe my money, it is in the same grab -bag as religions, cults, bugaboos and Woo. And I feel angry on his behalf when I see believers in unverified faith -claims (admittedly having sidestepped the "Which God" bear trap) pat his memory condescendingly on the head with a patronizing "Well, he did well in his own lower level sphere, but he never even tried to reach to MY advanced level, poor dear chap..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
No. I mean actively sinning and not doing what God commands, or doing what he says not to.
Well, there I say that - once you take a get out of jail free card, handed out with each Church membership token, out of the equation, then you are better off with human morality, really.
Even if you are not one of those who, when caught sinning do an exhibition repentance and then reckon if God has forgiven him so should everyone else, then the tendency is to wonder whether, when choosing the right course of action over the wrong, one is doing it because God is watching, not because it's right.
That's even without actually looking at "what God commands, or doing what he says not to" which is either what human ethics can make a better fist of, or are either bad, ludicrous (I mean...give everything to the poor? Who the hell does that?) or just about grovelling to the god and his priests.
No, give me human ethics, makeshift though they are, than what purports to be "God's morality".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Hospitals
Food banks
Charities
To do those three requires only a good person to do what they do. for good people to do the Inquisition, Salem Witch trials, Holy wars- that takes religion.
At best, even if the good cancelled out the bad (I doubt that it does) you are left with 'What's true?' Handing out free rice doesn't make your claims true. It merely turns the gift into a bribe.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-15-2018 at 06:43 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
