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People can find examples of blame on their own in CD.
Ah.
Claim,
evidence asked
"Find it yourself".
familiar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I think you're right.
I knew someone who was a die-hard fundie Baptist until after he went to Vietnam, when he lost all faith, understandably.
In his later years, though, he hung on tightly to the most extreme conspiracy theories about 9/11 and other things he believed the government controlled and did, and his inability to listen to other points of view or even facts demonstrating that he was dead wrong about certain things was exactly like having a conversation with an extreme fundamentalist. He had just transferred his mindset to another area.
Sounds familiar. A pal (or former pal - haven't heard for some time) used to be pretty fundamentalist religious and then, in what I often cite as an example, seeing one small act of lack of faith by a minister released all the flood of doubt and question he'd been shutting away for years (he told me later on, as a theist apologist he had never Listened) and began a hard hitting and rather abusive atheist website, where i commented and we got friendly.
It was this guy and a laped catholic on the forum I was on gave me theory of No moral backup. There could be other reasons but it looked like, having lost Morality through Dogma, they put into practice their dictum 'no God, do what you like. It wasn't that bad with Chris...ooops...as he became a bit more caring in fact, not believing that people starving in the gutter was part of God's plan. But I had to turn down his invitation to parachute into Theist sites and post abusive material. He was bitterly angry at the con that had been perpetrated upon him.
But after 9/11 he bougt into the conspiracy theories, and he debated those with me in very much the same way he would have debated the Gospels as a theist. Ending with "David, (that's me ) I love you, but you drive me mad with your refusal to accept the truth." Or something similar to another believer not too far fro here.
I certainly got the impression that he had switched his Faith -methodology to just another Belief.
Incidentally, I also developed another ...not Theory "( )" but perception, that you -all have permission to call transponder's law, (unless some philosopher has bagged it already) that Conspiracy theories, when you bring up some evidence to refute it, expands to include those involved with that evidence in the conspiracy. It not only ends up rather like the UFO conspiracy where All the governments know about the aliens but have kept it utterly quiet, or evolution which is a global conspiracy of scientists (funded by atheists who appear to be rolling in it) to pretend that it claims that it is change within a species which works when in fact it claims cats from dogs, which doesn't, or more recently the Flat earthist whose theory requires that all the scientific, political and military organisations of the world have a pact of denial of the facts from tom to botton, from east to west and from 1970 to today, with the sole intent of discrediting half a dozen flat earthists.
People can find examples of blame on their own in CD.
I wanted to see what you were seeing. I've been through this with Arch before and it looks like people "blaming" things on other people or religion. I see it more as people talking about the source of the problem which is what taking responsibility is all about to me. what happened to us can't be changed but we can try to fix it and part of that is the responsibility I feel to warn other people. There may be some people stuck in victim mode that's why I asked you.
I wanted to see what you were seeing. I've been through this with Arch before and it looks like people "blaming" things on other people or religion. I see it more as people talking about the source of the problem which is what taking responsibility is all about to me. what happened to us can't be changed but we can try to fix it and part of that is the responsibility I feel to warn other people. There may be some people stuck in victim mode that's why I asked you.
blaming others is NOT taking responsibility for healing.
blaming others is more often than not an excuse to stay stuck in victim mode.
and avoid the hard work of self-improvement. and avoid recognizing our part in the dynamic.
if a person stays stuck in victim mode they are not healing.
seeking professional help is taking responsibility for healing.
working a strong program of recovery is taking responsibility for our healing.
someone can stop using their drug of choice but until they work an active program of recovery and change their behaviors they are not going to heal.
a person doesn't heal or fix anyone or anything by blaming others. they just stay stuck in victim mode. How do we recognize if someone's in victim mode? They blame others. They blame people, places, things, organizations, institutions, religion, their parents, their ex, the list never ends.
"talking about the source of the problem" is dicey language. we can "talk about our personal experience" "talk about our upbringing" "share our story" but when we start calling it "the source of the problem" it can slide right into blame and victim, and making excuses. I can recognize "oh this happened growing up, a natural result of that is i picked up this behavior. this behavior is not something that i choose to keep in my life because it harms me and harms others. " "a child is not responsible for what happened, but i am now an adult, and I am responsible for the quality of my life, i am responsible for the choices i make and i am responsible for my thought speech action and feelings. "
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 03-19-2018 at 05:41 PM..
I agree with that. and I may be at odds with a lot of other atheists who Do Drugs. i don't. i don't even want to.
Now if others do..they should take responsibility for the results, funding and cures. If they rather turned to the society and governmental system they rejected, Man, and expect you I and the government to pay for their rehab, then ISIL, Creationists and all those who voted Brexit are going to have to wait for their turn at the bullet -pocked brick wall.
That's even assuming that they accept that there's anything to be cured, and the fear is that (even if trading the stuff was legalized) bottom rung hardline crime (not the stuff that requires brains and patience but the stuff that requires untrammelled brutality and quick results) would be the first choice for continuing to fund the habit.
This, dear lady, if you are talking of social responsibility for their own actions, would be, if you needed a dictionary definition of what that wasn't, would be it.
blaming others is NOT taking responsibility for healing.
blaming others is more often than not an excuse to stay stuck in victim mode.
and avoid the hard work of self-improvement. and avoid recognizing our part in the dynamic.
if a person stays stuck in victim mode they are not healing.
seeking professional help is taking responsibility for healing.
working a strong program of recovery is taking responsibility for our healing.
someone can stop using their drug of choice but until they work an active program of recovery and change their behaviors they are not going to heal.
a person doesn't heal or fix anyone or anything by blaming others. they just stay stuck in victim mode. How do we recognize if someone's in victim mode? They blame others. They blame people, places, things, organizations, institutions, religion, their parents, their ex, the list never ends.
"talking about the source of the problem" is dicey language. we can "talk about our personal experience" "talk about our upbringing" "share our story" but when we start calling it "the source of the problem" it can slide right into blame and victim, and making excuses. I can recognize "oh this happened growing up, a natural result of that is i picked up this behavior. this behavior is not something that i choose to keep in my life because it harms me and harms others. " "a child is not responsible for what happened, but i am now an adult, and I am responsible for the quality of my life, i am responsible for the choices i make and i am responsible for my thought speech action and feelings. "
I agree blaming others is not taking responsibility. I don't understand why you keep saying that. Can you me an example of what you mean, such as,
Victim mode: typical statement
Responsibility mode: typical statement
I'll give you an example of source of the problem. Kids that grew up as I did tend to be hypervigilant. I now know this is a problem so I often check myself to make sure I'm not reading too much into things.
I agree blaming others is not taking responsibility. I don't understand why you keep saying that. Can you me an example of what you mean, such as,
Victim mode: typical statement
Responsibility mode: typical statement
I'll give you an example of source of the problem. Kids that grew up as I did tend to be hypervigilant. I now know this is a problem so I often check myself to make sure I'm not reading too much into things.
ok let's use an example related to this thread.
"my mother was abusive to me growing up. she went to a church. I blame the church and the pastor for her being abusive. she refused to ever go to therapy. that was the church's fault too, they were told not to go to therapy or think for themselves. she was vulnerable. they took advantage of her."
that is victim mode. he recognizes his mom was abusive, names an addiction religion, and blames the church for her being abusive. he recognizes she did not seek therapy, and he blames the church for that too.
responsibility mode would still recognize his mom was abusive, still recognize she has an addiction religion, still recognize she did not seek therapy to address her addictive behavior, her abusive behavior. But taking responsibility he would recognize "i grew up in an abusive home, my mother had addiction, she did not seek treatment for her addictive behavior. I recognize that I am affected by growing up in a home with abuse and addiction present. Since I learned behavior in the home i grew up in, i have learned unhealthy behaviors that are abusive and addictive. that is a fact.
" i recognize that i need help with addressing that problematic behavior. i seek professional help through counseling, therapy or 12-step recovery work. I do this because I want to learn healthy behavior that I did not learn growing up. My parents did the best they could. However I choose to do things differently than my mother did. I choose to seek professional help. If I don't i will inevitably repeat the family pattern. That is a fact. Abuse is a cycle. It repeats. I choose to do this because I want calmer healthier relationships than what I grew up with. I choose to do this because I don't want to pass this unhealthy behavior onto my kids. I do this because I want to break the cycle of abuse. If i do not do this, the abuse continues. That is a fact."
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 03-19-2018 at 06:31 PM..
This thread is very much about extremism. Read the title of this thread. Read the opening post. Read the link text in rhe opening post. Allthose specifically refer to extremism as the topic of this thread.
Read post #7 and post #17 by the person who started this thread. Those address extremism. That is the behavior, or constellation of behaviors, being discussed.
You can (and have done so) share what those words mean to you and how you use them and define them. It's always fun to see people do that because often their personal biases appear as they squirm regarding word usage.
Did I say otherwise about the thread? If I did, I must have completely ignored the thread title after reading into the actual study instead of the opinion-piece about it. I also found the O.P.'s (wonderful person as they may be) commentaries rather tangent, so largely ignored them.
Spoiler
"Alternet" is a known online "extremist" left media. All tabloid-like online entities (like Buzzfeed, etc) are biased to "sell, sell, sell" to the ignorant for ad-revenue. I'm sure "fundamentalists" could be a big part of their reading-base or of their reading-base's privileging concerns, so they changed the label of "fundamentalist" to "extremist" on purpose.
I do squirm every time someone says something ignorant. So go ahead and point out my supposedly now apparent "personal biases." Or are you projecting some sort of insecurity on me? Have no fear: I don't care that you are trying to paint all fundamentalists as extremists.
I don't agree with the O.P.'s (or "Alternet's" that is) redefinition.
So what is my bias? As you are the one that thinks fundamentalists are extremists, but THAT would be the extreme position. Here are some good definitions I found from Google for you and others (including the O.P.).
Quote:
ex·trem·ism
ikˈstrēˌmizəm/Submit
noun
the holding of extreme political or religious views; fanaticism.
"the dangers of religious extremism"
Quote:
fun·da·men·tal·ism
ˌfəndəˈmen(t)lˌizəm/Submit
noun
a form of a religion, especially Islam or Protestant Christianity, that upholds belief in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture.
strict adherence to the basic principles of any subject or discipline.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 03-19-2018 at 06:43 PM..
"my mother was abusive to me growing up. she went to a church. I blame the church and the pastor for her being abusive. she refused to ever go to therapy. that was the church's fault too, they were told not to go to therapy or think for themselves. she was vulnerable. they took advantage of her."
that is victim mode. he recognizes his mom was abusive, names an addiction religion, and blames the church for her being abusive. he recognizes she did not seek therapy, and he blames the church for that too.
responsibility mode would still recognize his mom was abusive, still recognize she has an addiction religion, still recognize she did not seek therapy to address her addictive behavior, her abusive behavior. But taking responsibility he would recognize "i grew up in an abusive home, my mother had addiction, she did not seek treatment for her addictive behavior. I recognize that I am affected by growing up in a home with abuse and addiction present. Since I learned behavior in the home i grew up in, i have learned unhealthy behaviors that are abusive and addictive. that is a fact.
" i recognize that i need help with addressing that problematic behavior. i seek professional help through counseling, therapy or 12-step recovery work. I do this because I want to learn healthy behavior that I did not learn growing up. My parents did the best they could. However I choose to do things differently than my mother did. I choose to seek professional help. If I don't i will inevitably repeat the family pattern. That is a fact. Abuse is a cycle. It repeats. I choose to do this because I want calmer healthoer relationships than what I grew up with. I choose to do this because I don't want to pass this unhealthy behavior onto my kids. I do this because I want to break the cycle of abuse. If i do not do this, the abuse continues. That is a fact."
I had to re read his post because I didn't see what you saw in that. He did use the word blame but I can see his point having been there myself. I struggled with how much responsibility my mother has in what happened. I was so angry at her or lying to me. Then I ran across some psychology articles and started up the rabbit hole of manipulation. That's when I figured out, not only did they screw her up, but me as well. On one hand she is an adult and on the other hand these are carefully designed snares meant to trap people. The trap is doing what the trap is supposed to do. No one is immune from getting taken advantage of. So ultimately I was her victim, she still is a victim and the people who victimized her are victims of other victims. When you figure out who's fault it is let me know.
I had to re read his post because I didn't see what you saw in that. He did use the word blame but I can see his point having been there myself. I struggled with how much responsibility my mother has in what happened. I was so angry at her or lying to me. Then I ran across some psychology articles and started up the rabbit hole of manipulation. That's when I figured out, not only did they screw her up, but me as well. On one hand she is an adult and on the other hand these are carefully designed snares meant to trap people. The trap is doing what the trap is supposed to do. No one is immune from getting taken advantage of. So ultimately I was her victim, she still is a victim and the people who victimized her are victims of other victims. When you figure out who's fault it is let me know.
It all started with Jesus. or so they say when it's convenient.
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I think you're right. 
) I love you, but you drive me mad with your refusal to accept the truth." Or something similar to another believer not too far fro here.
)" but perception, that you -all have permission to call transponder's law, (unless some philosopher has bagged it already) that Conspiracy theories, when you bring up some evidence to refute it, expands to include those involved with that evidence in the conspiracy. It not only ends up rather like the UFO conspiracy where All the governments know about the aliens but have kept it utterly quiet, or evolution which is a global conspiracy of scientists (funded by atheists who appear to be rolling in it) to pretend that it claims that it is change within a species which works when in fact it claims cats from dogs, which doesn't, or more recently the Flat earthist whose theory requires that all the scientific, political and military organisations of the world have a pact of denial of the facts from tom to botton, from east to west and from 1970 to today, with the sole intent of discrediting half a dozen flat earthists.
or so they say when it's convenient.