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What's the point? A stack of evidence that it is fiction has been presented in more posts than you can shake a striped stick at, nativity, Resurrection, Exodus, Daniel, death of Judas, the sermon on the mount, the transfiguration, Paul's escape from Damascus in Acts, - all shown to be untrustworthy - and you still ignore it.
Sorry but atheists have not made a single valid case that the Bible is untrustworthy. They stubborned refuse to study language (words in Hebrew have mutiple meanings , ya know) context and culture. Futhermore, even from a logical standpoint, it doesn't make sense the authors separated by hundreds of years would all conspire to deceive the world by writing a collection of fiction stories heavily based on reality. The OT Jews were not out there recruiting new members. The early Christians had their bodies lit on fire to serve as lamposts for the cruel Romans. The apostles died horribly for their faith. People don't sacrifice everything for a fiction. I can wish and hope that the religion of Jedi is real, but I certainly wouldn't stake my life on it.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Archaeology? There is a Jericho - so the account of the walls being knocked down by trumpet -noise has to be true. There is a Mount Ararat - so the Noah story has to be true. The is a Bethlehem - so Jesus has to be borne there. 'Archaeology' as you call it, confirms nothing other than someone telling a tale of alin abduction can usually come up with a place where it supposedly happened.
Yes, archaeology. You know, the main tool to verify ancient history. At the very least, it gives credibility to the Biblical accounts. The alternative is to believe that the fiction writers somehow had amazing inside intel into innner workings of governments and kings. Even the story of Joseph aligns with what is known about Egyptian culture. There are countless finds that always support the Bible like Tel Dan Stela which confirmed that David was a real king. The fact that you so casually dismiss the entire field is an insult to archaeologists.
Nice back-pedaling, jeffie. So, it's sort of true except for the parts that aren't but the parts that aren't don't matter to fundies.
In other words, fundies cherry-pick just like every other Christian.
I never stated that was my premise. I'm only saying that has to be the premise of an atheist or you are not being intellectually honest. My premise is the entire Bible is true and it is the word of God.
I never stated that was my premise. I'm only saying that has to be the premise of an atheist or you are not being intellectually honest. My premise is the entire Bible is true and it is the word of God.
It's odd. Fundies believe things like talking snakes and donkeys and guys who live inside fish. And they're allowed to live outside of rooms with padded walls.
Fortunately, non-fundies are tolerant and kind to those thus afflicted.
Sorry but atheists have not made a single valid case that the Bible is untrustworthy. They stubborned refuse to study language (words in Hebrew have mutiple meanings , ya know) context and culture. Futhermore, even from a logical standpoint, it doesn't make sense the authors separated by hundreds of years would all conspire to deceive the world by writing a collection of fiction stories heavily based on reality. The OT Jews were not out there recruiting new members. The early Christians had their bodies lit on fire to serve as lamposts for the cruel Romans. The apostles died horribly for their faith. People don't sacrifice everything for a fiction. I can wish and hope that the religion of Jedi is real, but I certainly wouldn't stake my life on it.
Bible critics have presented many reasons to reject the Bible a reliable. I have done it here, but what do you do? Start trying to wriggle out it by setting up for a translation -shopping expedition. The translations generally agree of the broad events - I can even work from KJV - and that's good enough to provide the debunking without having to try to retranslate it to suit what I think it ought to say.
It makes perfect sense that the writers with an Agenda from first to last would write polemic propaganda. Three main OT writ -ups - the law, around 10th c, by the early Hebrew kings to ensure the people didn't worship other gods or follow foreign ways and become absorbed. Babylon period when a history was invented to suit the Jews, borrowing rather from Mesopotamian myths. Post Persian period (in Aramaic) Daniel, Ezekiel I would suppose and all the books after that. Daniel can be seen as a rallying call for the Maccabean revolt and the 'prophecy' dated by events to the years before it broke out. Therafter it goes wrong about the end of Antiochus and peters out into last days waffle.
And then the Gospels. The Agenda there is clear - to debunk Judaism, blame the Jews for killing Jesus and reinvent the failed Jewish messiah as a gentile -friendly proto - Christian.
Yes, Pilate existed, and Caiaphas existed and I don't doubt that Paul, James, peter and indeed Jesus were real people. So was Richard Whittington a real mayor of London, but that doesn't make 'puss in Boots' true any more than that absurd trial and the Jews taking the blame for the roman execution. Which nicely leads into your second point.
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Yes, archaeology. You know, the main tool to verify ancient history. At the very least, it gives credibility to the Biblical accounts. The alternative is to believe that the fiction writers somehow had amazing inside intel into innner workings of governments and kings. Even the story of Joseph aligns with what is known about Egyptian culture. There are countless finds that always support the Bible like Tel Dan Stela which confirmed that David was a real king. The fact that you so casually dismiss the entire field is an insult to archaeologists.
At the very least I'd like you people to come up with a bit more than the very least. So, nobody really doubted there was a David and a Solomon, too. There were even Philistines. So there were Saxons and Normans too, but does that makes Robin Hood real? Even if some record of a Nottinghamshire out -law of that name (Dick Turpin was real, too) turned up, does that validate all those stories?
No, you find a few verifiable points and try to make that validate everything else. The insult to Archaeology and history is that you seize on the fact that Egyptian kings had a 'cup -bearer' (which kings of the time didn't?) and use that to wipe away all that historical research has found to replace it with the tosh of the Bible. The insult to archaeology is that you take a marker or two verifying David, Pilate, Israel, and wipe away that archeology says there was no conquest as per the Bible. The Gospel story does not fit what research has discovered.
I know that you people are - despite piddling all over science when it refutes your dearly -held fantasies, are wriggling with a need (rather like the culys and pseudo sciences) to grab some of the Kudos that science has. But pointing to the Babylon ziggurat and saying it proves the tower of Bablel and thus the Bible -account is laughable and an insult to archaeology and history.
No, you don't go that far, nor the poster who referred to the Hamurabbi code as evidence for the Bible. (???). But what you are doing while not so whacky, is no more credible.
While I'm at it, one of my favourites and one that I once considered a best bit of Bible evidence - the Assyrian Seige of Jerusalem. It's in the British museum - bas reliefs and an account carved on a stone prism. What more could you want? Jeff, that's far better than you Moab stone or Merneptah stele.
But discussion here made it clear that while the event is real enough, the Bible account is propagandist lies. God did not smite the Assyrians. Hezekiah had to surrender, become a vassal and pay tribute. You want details?
It's odd. Fundies believe things like talking snakes and donkeys and guys who live inside fish. And they're allowed to live outside of rooms with padded walls.
Fortunately, non-fundies are tolerant and kind to those thus afflicted.
And fundies can have an intelligent conversation without resorting to petty insults and mockery. Atheists seem to lack that ability.
I'm still waiting for SOMEONE to adequately explain where 4,000 years of human history went.
In the Bible, you have the Adam and Eve creation story and then suddenly whoosh! The Bible is telling stories about Egypt!
Considering we have written evidence of civilization going back to roughly 6,000 years (it's actually much longer than that, but the archaelogy hasn't found language associated with the dig sites), the Bibical authors just up and quit -- like a teen girl keeping a diary and then one day decides to stop.
Anyhow, that's a gap of some 4,000 years! That's a HUGE gap! I don't expect an historical account of every day or even every last year or decade, but c'mon, 4,000 years?
So, in 4,000 years, God did nothing. The Hebrews did nothing. No one sinned. There were no wars or genocides. Not even once did God get angry. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. For 4,000 years, literally nothing happened.
Even Adam, the first human being EVER to exist, simply fades into obscurity, disappearing from the historical record. Given that Adam lived for many hundreds of years, one would think that the first human created directly by God would have been someone of great importance in the world. But he wasn't. He just disappears -- as does Eve.
Then you have the problem of having the Hebrews suddenly becoming God's chosen people. Who the hell are the Hebrews? Where did they come from? WHY does God have such a "thing" for the Israelites?
And why would a God create quintillions of light years of space filled with trillions of stars and planets -- only to fixate entirely upon one single insignificant, primitive desert tribe milling about in a sparsely populated backwater far removed from any real civilization? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
EXCEPT ... if one is willing to admit that the Hebrews invented the god Yahweh to foster cultural integrity.
It also makes perfect sense when you realize that Yahweh -- in any shape or form -- was unknown literally anywhere where there were no Hebrews. It seems awfully bizarre that Almighty God, Creator of the Universe, would contain himself within areas that are populated by the Israelites. In fact, the moment the Hebrews were freed by one of many of God's temper tantrums, God up sticks and left Egypt altogether -- even though Egypt was a massive pagan empire that *could* have been converted.
Oh yeah, the conversion issue is another problem Bible worshipers never seem to have a good answer for.
WHY does Yahweh, in the form of Jesus, all of the sudden, like lightning from the blue, suddenly give two shytes about the souls of Gentiles? For literally thousands of years, God only gave a damn about the Hebrews. Everyone else was just cannon (or spear, in this case) fodder for God's genocides.
Never, no, not once, did God *ever* tell Moses or Joshua or Abraham or any of the other Hebrew assassins to go into a city and convert people to Yahweh worship. Nope. Instead, it was simply kill, kill, kill. Wipe them out. Didn't matter one iota that none of those people were familiar with Yahweh and his definition of sin -- that most residents of Admah, Zeboim, Bela, Jericho, Heshbon, Kir-Hareseth, etc. etc. didn't even know who Yahweh was much less were able to follow his rules. As such, it stands to reason that they were sinners ... right?
It would be the equivalent of Pennsylvania invading California and saying, "What? You mean the people of California don't know Pennsylvania state laws? Kill them all for being evil and wicked!"
It's positively absurd.
There are SO many issues regarding this aspect of Christian history that I could probably write a book about it.
In any event, these issues by themselves are more than enough to convince any free-thinking person that the Bible is a work of complete fiction.
Last edited by Shirina; 05-18-2018 at 12:10 PM..
Reason: I had to write the first half of my post in the year 2018 B.C. and the second part in 2018 A.D. to have a 4k year gap too.
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