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All children are saved until the reach the age of accountability.
Ok, I am glad you have an opinion...
Can you show where this is found in the Bible? Chapter and verse please...
Because as best as I can tell, it really boils down to trying to dodge a potentially uncomfortable conclusion. The only workaround I can see for Calvinists is if God has chosen to only allow the elect to die young, so anyone that dies in the womb or in early childhood was predestined to be saved anyway. This appears to lead to a very ugly schroedinger’s cat scenario, where the only way to be sure a child will be saved it to attempt to kill them. If you succeed, they were predestined for salvation... it’s a horrible, nasty conclusion, but it logically makes sense. This is part of what convinced me that religion is manmade, as nearly universally believers will reject kind of logic, even if it is consistent with their doctrine, because it offends their humanity.
Thanks for continuing to expose your biased, and ignorant understanding of Calvinism.
It is the atheist who support abortion and gives no value to children. WE teach all people have value and Jesus loves them this we know, for the Bible tells us so.
If Vizo taught the left side, he was no true Calvinist.
This is why I keep the sights of my literally guns on the ignorant secular fundies.
Please tell us exactly how evangelical, Calvinist or any other of that ilk give a rats behind about the welfare of children once they are born. SNAP? Get rid of it. Same for Head Start. Same for pick any program that gives a hand up for those who are disadvantaged.
Save us from your outrage. I don't see ONE church group providing free daycare for single parents (usually mothers) so they can better provide for their children. That would be real compassion.
Not really. It's the familiar situation of one side using logic and evidence to make a case and the Religious side dismissing this as 'opinion'. So here religious Dogma trumps ethics and morality. We get told that this is just our 'opinion' and the ethical and moral result is not binding on Christians. This is why we say it is immoral.
Yes really. Why would you think you have the right to tell religious believers how they are to believe about the fate of children who die? That is entirely up to the believers to decide what their faith teaches . And I fail to see what is immoral about believing that children don't go to hell, which is after all the actual topic of this part of the discussion.
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I don't see the difference. Men (and women) are collectively humans aren't they?
You don't understand the difference between the verse being about deeds men do and being about the people themselves? Here is the verse
"All our righteous acts are as filthy rags"
How is this about people? It's about acts, deeds, etc. The point is about trying to please God with acts and deeds .
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Why is it silly? Setting aside the humanist ethics which you say is 'opinion' that isn't binding on Christians? The logic - get them to heaven as soon as possible, let alone avoiding and possible later Bad sin - is a good thing to do, isn't it? Why is it 'silly'? What reason is there not to do it, absent Human Rules of Ethical Opinion?
Hint - don't field 'Do not kill'. That means do not 'Murder' according to Christian apologetics. i.e; do not kill unjustly. Well, getting people to heaven Pdq is not unjust killing.
Let's ask the question in reverse . Do you think it should be OK to kill Christians because they believe they will go to heaven and so you are just helping them along? Not a sarcastic question, I really would like an answer .
Last edited by wallflash; 09-07-2018 at 12:32 PM..
Yes really. Why would you think you have the right to tell religious believers how they are to believe about the fate of children who die? That is entirely up to the believers to decide what their faith teaches . And I fail to see what is immoral about believing that children don't go to hell, which is after all the actual topic of this part of the discussion.
It's not so much immoral - it's actually moral - humanist morals - because that was NOT Christian dogma until people (using Human morality' saw that was immoral and so sinful nature had to be supposedly Gone up to the age of reason (age 7, so i heard) and then Bang, you are going to hell unless you get right with God. It is reprehensible. It stinks.
And I do bot have the right to tell people what to believe, though a Christian would assume that's how I think - because they do. But nobody has the right to tell me that I can't say, post or shout what I see terribly flawed, irrational and Bad about all this. So that's what I do.
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You don't understand the difference between the verse being about deeds men do and being about the people themselves? Here is the verse
"All our righteous acts are as filthy rags"
How is this about people? It's about acts, deeds, etc. The point is about trying to please God with acts and deeds .
I can't see where you are being mentally tied up. Acts and deeds are what people do. What else could it be? Please explain what you think the difference is between 'men' and their deeds and people and Their deeds.
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Let's ask the question in reverse . Do you think it should be OK to kill Christians because they believe they will go to heaven and so you are just helping them along? Not a sarcastic question, I really would like an answer .
No, because it is against human morality, which is what we all use. There is no reason why killing people can be represented as good (aside from people with a super -race fixation or the tricky but legitimate case of people who don't want to live any more) and there has to be some kind of justification - defending your wife, kids and the people who run the country.
But the dogma of Christianity gives a very good reason why we should kill kids before they hit age 7. What's the moral reason why not? You tell me. Why not breed like it would shock Qiverful and send each one to heaven before they can be accountable as 'sinful' (1) There is a humanist reason why - they get one life and taking that away is a crime. Christian Dogma says (sorry, I should have said can be seen as suggesting - sloppiness on my part) that sending as many souls to heaven before they get a chance to sin is the way to do it, and only this Unwritten law means we can't do that. We have to struggle under this massive burden and threat and die in fear.
We release you from this spell.
I have to post this great Moment. Also as a token of how I see LoR as a metaphor of the religious struggle - but Tolkien had the metaphor back to front.
Viewer discretion is advised. Scenes of gratuitous violence. Enjoy.
"I feel as one new awakened. I wish you had come earlier, Gandalf".
(1) I know about the fact that they are born sinful and how the doctrine had to be changed, because apparently just baptiing them as Christians only sems to give the church dibs on the kid, but it really didn't seem to get rid of the Sin. But let's not do that right now.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-07-2018 at 01:48 PM..
The "acts and deeds" that were "accounted as filthy rags" were SO accounted because the people were not committed to righteousness, but were putting on a show, Yes, it IS about the people.
The "acts and deeds" that were "accounted as filthy rags" were SO accounted because the people were not committed to righteousness, but were putting on a show, Yes, it IS about the people.
The "acts and deeds" that were "accounted as filthy rags" were SO accounted because the people were not committed to righteousness, but were putting on a show, Yes, it IS about the people.
I think so - as individuals for sure, but individuals make up people. Perhaps 'people' as a group are also accountable and may get Punished as a group , but they get Judged as individuals. I am with you there. And perhaps that's what you had in mind.
Under the Mosaic Covenant and the original quote it was defined as action according to the Law, but we can see from the circumstances of the citation that the FORM was not enough, and THAT was the reason Jeremiah recognized the need for a "New Covenant" which he visualized AS such a commitment: "written on their hearts" (that does NOT mean "memorized.")
Under the "New Covenant" which Jesus established it IS that commitment in faith. Berean Study Bible:
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
The "acts and deeds" that were "accounted as filthy rags" were SO accounted because the people were not committed to righteousness, but were putting on a show, Yes, it IS about the people.
It is about how the people ACT . It doesn't refer to the people themselves as dirty rags, no matter how much you wish it to . The language speaks for itself . It is about how their ACTS did not bring them righteousness, and it is hyperbole . If you have kids, do you consider them bad kids if they commit a wrong, or do you separate the deeds from the kids, and condemn the act without regarding the child as worthless ?
Last edited by wallflash; 09-07-2018 at 06:19 PM..
Under the Mosaic Covenant and the original quote it was defined as action according to the Law, but we can see from the circumstances of the citation that the FORM was not enough, and THAT was the reason Jeremiah recognized the need for a "New Covenant" which he visualized AS such a commitment: "written on their hearts" (that does NOT mean "memorized.")
Under the "New Covenant" which Jesus established it IS that commitment in faith. Berean Study Bible:
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
James 2:24 New International Version (NIV)
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
Just stating by faith is not substantiated by the bible. Trust me, I've studied it, including at University. I know the Bible.... I'm an atheist because of it.
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That means do not 'Murder' according to Christian apologetics. i.e; do not kill unjustly. Well, getting people to heaven Pdq is not unjust killing.
