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The book of Revelation was written by a man named John who was an exiled prisoner. He had nothing to do but write down his visions. But there was a lot of anger mixed with love.
What would you think about a modern day prisoner who was doing the same thing? When people are in isolation they can have all kinds of wild and crazy thoughts. Anger. Love. Resentment. Forgiveness. Etc. But would you really trust this person who was a criminal? Regardless of whether the person was exiled for a true crime or whatever. The thoughts of extreme judgement that a person could have is kind of troubling.
i have always found Revelation a puzzle. It looks very End Times and Final Struggle, and the symbolism is pretty evident, if not clear. I am rather charmed by the identification of the thing with Nero and the Jewish revolt. Except that it does seem to be very Christian in tone. But then, perhaps originally the Christians were not as Pro Roman Imperial as they later became. Just a vague idea.
Let's get this straight. 1st the followers of the REAL Messiah Yahshua (not the altered version from the Church of Rome and they were the one's that coined "christian" as it came from "christos" the name they exalted all their pagan gods with) were referred to as "Followers Of The Way".......the WAY being the Torah, not the Pharisaical altered Judaism of that particular day.
The "Letter" referred to as "Revelations" is very Hebraic full of references that would need to be taken back into the Hebrew and Aramaic for proper understanding. Not gonna happen with Greco Romanized English that's for sure.....no wonder it confuses you. You're reading English trying to make sense out of it from that perspective. Not gonna happen.
The last chapter of Revelation is as clear as it can possibly be. You're either Israel (adopted in or native born either way) or you're TOAST! As Messiah stated "Blessed are those that are DOING MY commandments, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the Tree of Life and to enter into the Gates of the City (that would be Yerushaliyim)
Another quote from that chapter that rubs xtians the wrong way 22:12 “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.
xtians think it's NOT about DOING and FOLLOWING HIS commandments. They couldn't be more wrong, hence why I don't acknowledge the paganized christian faith. ONLY those that consider themselves true Israel and follow the commandments and the Torah of YHWH and Messiah who taught exactly that. You xtians love to pick and choose scripture segments that seem to support your belief system, yet ignore the entire picture. ALL of the Torah which is YHWH's Teaching and Instruction for a Righteous Life. Messiah was HIS gift for those that would do HIS commandments to have eternal life.
Just as Messiah stated in Matthew 5 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.e I did not come to destroy but to complete. (the Hebrew for "complete" is to bring to FULLNESS not be done)18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. 19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. 20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees,g you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens.
So STOP saying or thinking Messiah did it ALL for YOU!. HE came to show YOU how to DO the Torah an LIVE IT! NOT ignore it!
Let's get this straight. 1st the followers of the REAL Messiah Yahshua (not the altered version from the Church of Rome and they were the one's that coined "christian" as it came from "christos" the name they exalted all their pagan gods with) were referred to as "Followers Of The Way".......the WAY being the Torah, not the Pharisaical altered Judaism of that particular day.
The "Letter" referred to as "Revelations" is very Hebraic full of references that would need to be taken back into the Hebrew and Aramaic for proper understanding. Not gonna happen with Greco Romanized English that's for sure.....no wonder it confuses you. You're reading English trying to make sense out of it from that perspective. Not gonna happen.
The last chapter of Revelation is as clear as it can possibly be. You're either Israel (adopted in or native born either way) or you're TOAST! As Messiah stated "Blessed are those that are DOING MY commandments, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the Tree of Life and to enter into the Gates of the City (that would be Yerushaliyim)
Another quote from that chapter that rubs xtians the wrong way 22:12 “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.
xtians think it's NOT about DOING and FOLLOWING HIS commandments. They couldn't be more wrong, hence why I don't acknowledge the paganized christian faith. ONLY those that consider themselves true Israel and follow the commandments and the Torah of YHWH and Messiah who taught exactly that. You xtians love to pick and choose scripture segments that seem to support your belief system, yet ignore the entire picture. ALL of the Torah which is YHWH's Teaching and Instruction for a Righteous Life. Messiah was HIS gift for those that would do HIS commandments to have eternal life.
Just as Messiah stated in Matthew 5 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.e I did not come to destroy but to complete. (the Hebrew for "complete" is to bring to FULLNESS not be done)18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. 19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. 20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees,g you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens.
So STOP saying or thinking Messiah did it ALL for YOU!. HE came to show YOU how to DO the Torah an LIVE IT! NOT ignore it!
While correct in your observations, you didn't really explain why Revelation isn't "trusted"/understood, even by Hebrew or Aramaic speaking people. It isn't understood, because like Daniel, a parallel prophesy to Revelation, per Daniel 12:10, the "wicked"/lawless will never understand. Much like Matthew 13:13, they have not ears to hear.
Let's get this straight. 1st the followers of the REAL Messiah Yahshua (not the altered version from the Church of Rome and they were the one's that coined "christian" as it came from "christos" the name they exalted all their pagan gods with) were referred to as "Followers Of The Way".......the WAY being the Torah, not the Pharisaical altered Judaism of that particular day.
The "Letter" referred to as "Revelations" is very Hebraic full of references that would need to be taken back into the Hebrew and Aramaic for proper understanding. Not gonna happen with Greco Romanized English that's for sure.....no wonder it confuses you. You're reading English trying to make sense out of it from that perspective. Not gonna happen.
The last chapter of Revelation is as clear as it can possibly be. You're either Israel (adopted in or native born either way) or you're TOAST! As Messiah stated "Blessed are those that are DOING MY commandments, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the Tree of Life and to enter into the Gates of the City (that would be Yerushaliyim)
Another quote from that chapter that rubs xtians the wrong way 22:12 “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.
xtians think it's NOT about DOING and FOLLOWING HIS commandments. They couldn't be more wrong, hence why I don't acknowledge the paganized christian faith. ONLY those that consider themselves true Israel and follow the commandments and the Torah of YHWH and Messiah who taught exactly that. You xtians love to pick and choose scripture segments that seem to support your belief system, yet ignore the entire picture. ALL of the Torah which is YHWH's Teaching and Instruction for a Righteous Life. Messiah was HIS gift for those that would do HIS commandments to have eternal life.
Just as Messiah stated in Matthew 5 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.e I did not come to destroy but to complete. (the Hebrew for "complete" is to bring to FULLNESS not be done)18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. 19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. 20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees,g you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens.
So STOP saying or thinking Messiah did it ALL for YOU!. HE came to show YOU how to DO the Torah an LIVE IT! NOT ignore it!
So Jesus is not God or God’s Son who died for everyone’s sins?
And salvation is based on WORKS and EFFORTS - AND NOT - on belief only?
You are turning the modern day Christian theology on its head.
Last edited by GoCardinals; 11-08-2018 at 12:01 PM..
The book of Revelation was written by a man named John who was an exiled prisoner. He had nothing to do but write down his visions. But there was a lot of anger mixed with love.
What would you think about a modern day prisoner who was doing the same thing? When people are in isolation they can have all kinds of wild and crazy thoughts. Anger. Love. Resentment. Forgiveness. Etc. But would you really trust this person who was a criminal? Regardless of whether the person was exiled for a true crime or whatever. The thoughts of extreme judgement that a person could have is kind of troubling.
Does anyone else understand my point of view?
The Revelation of John fought a long hard battle with the Revelation of Peter, but in the end, it won over (And if you assume by the grace of God, then it did so much like Islam has won in certain battles) its membership in the canon of popular Christian Bibliolatry, and the Revelation of Peter has become like a persecuted minority in Jesus' name.
I'm sure it is easy to trust those "supposed criminals" in one's group that were imprisoned by those "certainly enemies" in another group that one doesn't like.
The book of Revelation was written by a man named John who was an exiled prisoner. He had nothing to do but write down his visions. But there was a lot of anger mixed with love.
What would you think about a modern day prisoner who was doing the same thing? When people are in isolation they can have all kinds of wild and crazy thoughts. Anger. Love. Resentment. Forgiveness. Etc. But would you really trust this person who was a criminal? Regardless of whether the person was exiled for a true crime or whatever. The thoughts of extreme judgement that a person could have is kind of troubling.
Does anyone else understand my point of view?
no reason a prisoner can't hit on some good stuff. That doesn't mean I wouldn't keep them locked up.
It's less of an issue of trust. Revelation is simply too abstract and obtuse for general usefulness. It's more of an appendix, as supplemental reading for those who really want to take a stab at it.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 11-08-2018 at 02:57 PM..
Let's get this straight. 1st the followers of the REAL Messiah Yahshua (not the altered version from the Church of Rome and they were the one's that coined "christian" as it came from "christos" the name they exalted all their pagan gods with) were referred to as "Followers Of The Way".......the WAY being the Torah, not the Pharisaical altered Judaism of that particular day.
The "Letter" referred to as "Revelations" is very Hebraic full of references that would need to be taken back into the Hebrew and Aramaic for proper understanding. Not gonna happen with Greco Romanized English that's for sure.....no wonder it confuses you. You're reading English trying to make sense out of it from that perspective. Not gonna happen.
The last chapter of Revelation is as clear as it can possibly be. You're either Israel (adopted in or native born either way) or you're TOAST! As Messiah stated "Blessed are those that are DOING MY commandments, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the Tree of Life and to enter into the Gates of the City (that would be Yerushaliyim)
Another quote from that chapter that rubs xtians the wrong way 22:12 “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.
xtians think it's NOT about DOING and FOLLOWING HIS commandments. They couldn't be more wrong, hence why I don't acknowledge the paganized christian faith. ONLY those that consider themselves true Israel and follow the commandments and the Torah of YHWH and Messiah who taught exactly that. You xtians love to pick and choose scripture segments that seem to support your belief system, yet ignore the entire picture. ALL of the Torah which is YHWH's Teaching and Instruction for a Righteous Life. Messiah was HIS gift for those that would do HIS commandments to have eternal life.
Just as Messiah stated in Matthew 5 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets.e I did not come to destroy but to complete. (the Hebrew for "complete" is to bring to FULLNESS not be done)18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. 19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. 20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees,g you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens.
So STOP saying or thinking Messiah did it ALL for YOU!. HE came to show YOU how to DO the Torah an LIVE IT! NOT ignore it!
Do you have any good evidence that Revelation WAS written in Hebrew or Aramaic rather than Greek? Don't say that John was a Jew - that's a Claim, not evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth
The Revelation of John fought a long hard battle with the Revelation of Peter, but in the end, it won over (And if you assume by the grace of God, then it did so much like Islam has won in certain battles) its membership in the canon of popular Christian Bibliolatry, and the Revelation of Peter has become like a persecuted minority in Jesus' name.
I'm sure it is easy to trust those "supposed criminals" in one's group that were imprisoned by those "certainly enemies" in another group that one doesn't like.
There's a Revelation of Peter? Google, here I come...
Yep
The Apocalypse of Peter (or Revelation of Peter) is an early Christian text of the 2nd century and an example of apocalyptic literature with Hellenistic overtones. It is not in the Bible, but is mentioned in the Muratorian fragment...(Wiki) a Greek original, it says. Which suggests that it wasn't by Cephas.
i have always found Revelation a puzzle. It looks very End Times and Final Struggle, and the symbolism is pretty evident, if not clear. I am rather charmed by the identification of the thing with Nero and the Jewish revolt. Except that it does seem to be very Christian in tone. But then, perhaps originally the Christians were not as Pro Roman Imperial as they later became. Just a vague idea.
I think he was definitely part of the early Christian movement. He might have even been a close disciple. In Revelation chapter 13 he is describing the "Jesus" of the Roman religion as a "Beast". He equates the false Roman Christianity as a beast which appeared to survive a mortal wound, which I assume was the crucifixion.
But he's really equating orthodox Christianity with the worship of Caesar, in a clever way.
It sounds pretty profound, but in today's terms it was really just political differences.
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