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Old 11-10-2018, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,784 posts, read 4,989,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
First, time is not on your side (or at least it wasn't on John's side). Unless he lived to 100, at a time when most died at 45, it would be a real stretch for him to have written the Gospel or Revelation.
You have a valid point that John must have lived a long time (the Christians say he did), but most people died when they were young. It is only those who survived to be adults who died on average around 45 years old.
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:58 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Actually, it was John. Lazarus wasn't an apostle.

https://www.gotquestions.org/discipl...sus-loved.html
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that John was the disciple whom Jesus loved, the one that is identified as the one he loved is Lazarus...And this is the one who’s testimony is written...
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:01 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Was he a criminal or a political prisoner?

There's quite a difference. I'd explain the difference, but it would just weird you out.





Nothing difficult about it if you study religious prophecies, especially biblical prophecies.

Sea symbolizes chaos and conflict. It's an allusion to various cosmogonies, including the Hebrew cosmogony in which Earth is created from the chaos of the primordial waters. The discriminating reader understands when the sea is to be taken in a literal sense.

Earth represents the inhabited civilized world, which does not include areas dominated by barbarians or aboriginal peoples. Sorry, but that does not include Australia, the Americas, Asia or sub-Saharan Africa. In Revelation, the Earth is basically the entire Roman Empire at its greatest extent and adjacent territories over which Rome exercised political or economic hegemony.

When not in the context of the inhabited civilized world (which is quite clear), Earth symbolizes stability (in contrast to the sea of chaos). There is one other unique phrase, "those that dwell in the earth" which refers to those who are eternally damned.

Air signifies thoughts, beliefs, ideas and paradigms.

Heaven symbolizes spirituality, except in the context of "those who dwell in heaven" which represents those who are saved.

Fire, brimstone and hailstones are destructive forces that are not weather related. Depending on the context, the destruction could be physical or tangible (that is something that you can see like an army being annihilated) or non-physical, that is to say intangible (like thoughts, belief systems and ideas being destroyed).

Fire represents purification or punishment. Generally, fire (and anything else) that falls, comes down or is thrown down should be interpreted as a punishment, something bad, or something negative. All other forms of fire represents goodness (through purification).

Earthquakes are revolutions, but are context dependent. A revolution could be physical (civil war) or the transformation of thoughts, beliefs and ideas (a social revolution).

Sun and Moon denote earth-based authorities, whether secular, religious, political or social, and they can be good or bad, as viewed in the context of the other symbols. Generally, the Sun is secular or political powers, while the Moon has an affinity to religious or social leaders.

Stars are symbols of spiritual powers. Stars in the heavens are good, while stars that are falling or thrown to earth represent (contextually) evil, idolatry, paganism or pagan gods.

Islands and Isles stand for nations. Specifically, in the context of Revelation, a nation is a State, nation-State or ethnic group.

Beasts are empires while kings may represent governments, kingdoms or empires.

Heads and Mountains represent forms of government and political sub-divisions. Often, mountains may refer to subordinate political entities such as provinces or principalities subordinate to a larger political entity, like an empire (e.g. Judea a province of Rome).



Jesus is neither, and he didn't die for anyone's sins, since everyone was already cleansed of their sins:

Leviticus 16:29 “This is to be a perpetual statute for you. In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you must humble yourselves and do no work of any kind, both the native citizen and the foreigner who resides in your midst, 16:30 for on this day atonement is to be made for you to cleanse you from all your sins; you must be clean before the Lord.

The High Priest takes care of all sins, so Jesus was totally unnecessary, and his death was that much more totally unnecessary.

Some people just don't understand the bible.
Revalation sounds very Greek Autoren to me...
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Germany
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A brief history of Revelations.

It appears to be early as it says Jesus is an angel, and his mother lived in the sky. It does not reference the gospels, only the Old Testament. It attacks the churches in what is now Turkey that were first set up by Paul.

Tatian, around 150 AD did not use it.
Theophilus in Antioch, around 180 AD accepted Tatians work, as well as Revelation.
Around 200 AD, Clement of Alexandria used Revelation.
The Muratorian Canon, possibly late 2nd century used it.
I am not sure if Origen, around 250 AD, accepted it.
Shortly after 300 AD, Eusebius said Revelation was both valid AND invalid.
The Codex Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus Codex both used Revelation.
Cyril of Jerusalem, in 350 AD, had the NT we have now minus Revelations.
It was in 367 AD that Athanasius said the bible that we have today was canon.

It puts a curse on anyone who changed any of the text, so I would say this was a practice that was already common in the first century AD.
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:07 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I knew that there were an early church Father who claimed to know someone who had known John the apostle in Ephesus. But that doesn't authenticate him as the author of any of these texts that have his name appended. I don't doubt that Peter really existed, but II Peter is considered to be demonstrably not by him, and I don't believe the Gospel of Peter is, either or you'd be referencing it all the time.



The disciple that "Jesus loved" was a disciple, rather than an apostle, which is a rather different thing. We know that Jesus loved Lazarus and his sisters (John) and he was next to the 'disciple that Jesus loved' at the last supper. After the arrest, the disciples (presumably including John) scattered but Peter and the other one followed Jesus to the High Priest's house and the Other being known there, got Peter in. How could that be John? Finally we see Jesus giving his mother to the disciple that Jesus loved, but there is no indication that any disciples were there - not even Peter, who'd been scared off or, was in misery. It has to be Lazarus.

I won't even go into the conclusion ( If you take the Gospels as reliable - which i don't) as to which of Jesus' followers (not an Apostle) Lazarus had to be. But John doesn't fit the bill. Not for the reasons that you give.
They were still called disciples at that time, they weren’t called Apostles until after the ascension...
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:23 AM
 
12,918 posts, read 16,870,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that John was the disciple whom Jesus loved, the one that is identified as the one he loved is Lazarus...And this is the one who’s testimony is written...
Lazarus also ran to the tomb to find it empty. But when he saw, he understood.

Why? Because he had also been raised out of his own "tomb" by Jesus after being dead for several days. Jesus is always reaching down with his hand and lifting us out of our own pits.
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:29 AM
 
99 posts, read 51,996 times
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You did not know they had acid back then?
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,784 posts, read 4,989,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
They were still called disciples at that time, they weren’t called Apostles until after the ascension...
No, they were first apostles, then they were turned into fictional disciples.
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
How was it estimated that he lived to be in his 90s?...
Because it's the only thing that fits in the conservative narrative. That's all you are going to get out of them either.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,926,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
The book of Revelation was written by a man named John who was an exiled prisoner. He had nothing to do but write down his visions. But there was a lot of anger mixed with love. Ch

What would you think about a modern day prisoner who was doing the same thing? When people are in isolation they can have all kinds of wild and crazy thoughts. Anger. Love. Resentment. Forgiveness. Etc. But would you really trust this person who was a criminal? Regardless of whether the person was exiled for a true crime or whatever. The thoughts of extreme judgement that a person could have is kind of troubling.

Does anyone else understand my point of view?
"Soul on Ice"
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