When faith guarantees you a place in paradise then what significant purpose of life is left? (believe, heaven)
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But a more interesting thought is that you believe that all these processes in the universe, the creation and destructions of the Stars, the design of glaxies, the orbital motion of the Planets, - ALL OF IT - is happening all by itself for billions of years without any plan, without any design and without any controlling force.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
That does explain the big rocks often flying past earth better than a god doing it.
Exactly. I find it interesting that people can look at all the "stuff that just happens," combined with what we do know about how/why/when these things happened... and conclude that there must have been some design or plan. I think that speaks more to our discomfort with the notion that random events brought us to where we are, and a human need to think there must be a designer/planner. Indeed, the fact that it took billions of years to accomplish only reinforces the reliance on random occurrences (i.e., if it was planned by a force, it wouldn't have needed that long). Consider...
* The prevailing theory for how the moon came to be is that one of Harry's really big rocks smashed into the young earth around 4.5 billion years ago, and the moon formed out of the debris. Which in turn created influences on the earth (ebb and flow of nature, gravitational effect that keeps earth from spinning out of control), which in turn created the environment that would eventually allow life to evolve. What kind of a "plan" counts on that turn of events?
* We have solid evidence that another of Harry's flying rocks slammed into the Yucatan Peninsula 66 million years ago, setting off a global chain of events that wiped out most of the species on earth at the time, including the dinosaurs. That's a pretty big change in plans, at midstream!
* One of our ancestors figured out how to breathe oxygen, which allowed it to climb out of the water and exist on land. Without that little mouth breather, and everything that followed him, you wouldn't be here. That's a pretty long, hard slog to get to humans (which we all like to think is the end of the plan!).
* The appendix, which might have been good for something at one point, but doesn't do much anymore other than make us sick. Plus the leftover leg bones in whales, and all the other vestigial organs carried around by various species. That's sloppy design.
* The fact that one specific sperm and one specific egg came together to make you, and not the millions of other possible combinations that could have occurred. Or the combinations that likely did occur but were miscarried before you came along, perhaps without your parents even knowing.
* The plant seed that got stuck to someone's foot (or chewed up and pooped out) and then deposited hundreds of miles away, spreading a new crop to an area where it did not previously exist but now thrives.
* The little boy thrown over a railing at the Mall of America (see other thread), and the man who threw himself off the Golden Gate Bridge, but lived despite his suicide attempt. Both of them may now go on to do other things, good or bad.
And on and on and on. Why would we look at any of those occurrences, individually or as a group, and conclude they must all be part of a design or plan or program?? If they are, it is the most hamfisted, mangled, nonsensical plan ever hatched. But much (MUCH) more likely is they simply happened, because conditions for them to happen were right (or wrong).
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 04-30-2019 at 01:00 PM..
And on and on and on. Why would we look at any of those occurrences, individually or as a group, and conclude they must all be part of a design or plan or program?? If they are, it is the most hamfisted, mangled, nonsensical plan ever hatched. But much (MUCH) more likely is they simply happened, because conditions for them to happen were right (or wrong).
If anyone ever said that there are no flaws in existence you might have a point. Who did? ...
Perhaps it was this person on the first quote (hidden as a spolier) below:
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
Well, there is the problem: your "understanding" is exactly backwards. If a universe has properties and processes that is simply the way they are; there is no right or wrong or " flawed" about them. The only "flaw" that comes into play would be thinking that they are (or even should be) different than what they are. An orbit in a planetary system, for instance, may be decaying and due to have the orbiting body fall into a particular sun. That is not a flaw in the system and processes of that universe, the flaw is in thinking that the orbit is (or should be) perfect. That is simply wishful thinking and completely divorced from reality:"flawed." Try thinking in real terms instead of nebulous "ideals."
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
... I told you not to read your own ideas into what I said. Let's try again: the conditions and processes in a universe are simply what they are. To claim that any of them is inherently flawed is faulty reasoning based on expectations of what "should be" that are only derived from the effect a condition or process has on us. There is nothing that requires a universe to perform to our expectations or desires. That you can't think your way out of a wet paper bag is no reflection on the universe.
Your logic continues to be damp and broken. And you continue to miss the point. To claim that something is faulty is to claim that it is flawed. Judgments are simply what they are, so they can never be inherently flawed, by your attempts at rationalization.
Like I said before many times. Your definition of flaw is not the one which is commonly used since EVERYTHING is as it is, and your premise is self-contradicting. You must be drowning in seas of wet paper bags that you cannot see this.
For example, gravity can be seen as "flawed/imperfect" if it doesn't lead to the desired outcome: human wellbeing. If then, we can control gravity for our purposes, then we would. And we would see it as "better, more perfect" like as it is with lightning rods controlling where nature lands her bolts.
In sentences, it would include:
"There is a flaw in the natural foundation [in order to build a house on top]."
"The Perfect Storm [as opposed to imperfect ones]"
"This diamond is free from flaws."
"This 2 year old shark was born with the flaw of not having one of its normally necessary fins"
But I understand, you want to focus on the idea that most natural circumstances are unchangeable, and thus people don't care to ascribe "imperfection" or "flaw" to them. However, there are some things in nature that we can change, and there is also some things in nature that we can imagine changing.
To say that nature cannot have flaws, but perception and human reason can, is to miss the point entirely. The given is that perception and human reasoning are natural. Everything simply is as it is.
To address the example of your more original counterclaim: a decaying orbit is thus flawed as a given "Perfectly designed thing that maintains itself" because it doesn't retain the supposed "Perfect Design" of it revolving around the Sun forever. It is, in fact, "decaying," is a flaw in the perception/reasoning of basically all humans except, I guess, some groups of Christians/people such as you and to Muslims that are even made aware of the fact that their previous idea about a stable orbit was wrong.
There is nothing "Perfectly Designed" in "things being what they are." Sure, it depends on what people want and the limitations of their perceptions of what they should want, given other things that they want. I never argued against this.
But it would still mean there are flaws in existence, which I'm glad you agree. And if it was designed and maintained as such, even for a micro-second, then the design and maintenance is flawed, which would mean the designer and maintainer is flawed. But you have said your Christianity is agnostic about Intelligent Design ideas. That is fine. I was really just trying to clarify that your idea about there being no flaws except those which are perceived or in perceiving was not used by the Muslim as a shield to say incorrectly that Any Pattern (or only the ones in our cosmos, for whatever reason) would automatically be evidence of perfect design and perfection.
And you do agree that "things being the way they are" does not make them perfect, although for some reason you wrote that perceiving them as "can be possibly better (are imperfect)" is flawed for some reason. I underlined the sentence that gave me that impression.
If percepts can be better (or are flawed), then you are saying that there are flaws/imperfections in the cosmos (although previous you wrote that you cannot judge things that simply are what they are). Which is why I pointed out that such a stance is self-contradicting.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 04-30-2019 at 08:44 PM..
Perhaps it was this person on the first quote (hidden as a spolier) below:
Your logic continues to be damp and broken. And you continue to miss the point. To claim that something is faulty is to claim that it is flawed. Judgments are simply what they are, so they can never be inherently flawed, by your attempts at rationalization.
Like I said before many times. Your definition of flaw is not the one which is commonly used since EVERYTHING is as it is, and your premise is self-contradicting. You must be drowning in seas of wet paper bags that you cannot see this.
For example, gravity can be seen as "flawed/imperfect" if it doesn't lead to the desired outcome: human wellbeing. If then, we can control gravity for our purposes, then we would. And we would see it as "better, more perfect" like as it is with lightning rods controlling where nature lands her bolts.
In sentences, it would include:
"There is a flaw in the natural foundation [in order to build a house on top]."
"The Perfect Storm [as opposed to imperfect ones]"
"This diamond is free from flaws."
"This 2 year old shark was born with the flaw of not having one of its normally necessary fins"
But I understand, you want to focus on the idea that most natural circumstances are unchangeable, and thus people don't care to ascribe "imperfection" or "flaw" to them. However, there are some things in nature that we can change, and there is also some things in nature that we can imagine changing.
To say that nature cannot have flaws, but perception and human reason can, is to miss the point entirely. The given is that perception and human reasoning are natural. Everything simply is as it is.
To address the example of your more original counterclaim: a decaying orbit is thus flawed as a given "Perfectly designed thing that maintains itself" because it doesn't retain the supposed "Perfect Design" of it revolving around the Sun forever. It is, in fact, "decaying," is a flaw in the perception/reasoning of basically all humans except, I guess, some groups of Christians/people such as you and to Muslims that are even made aware of the fact that their previous idea about a stable orbit was wrong.
There is nothing "Perfectly Designed" in "things being what they are." Sure, it depends on what people want and the limitations of their perceptions of what they should want, given other things that they want. I never argued against this.
But it would still mean there are flaws in existence, which I'm glad you agree. And if it was designed and maintained as such, even for a micro-second, then the design and maintenance is flawed, which would mean the designer and maintainer is flawed. But you have said your Christianity is agnostic about Intelligent Design ideas. That is fine. I was really just trying to clarify that your idea about there being no flaws except those which are perceived or in perceiving was not used by the Muslim as a shield to say incorrectly that Any Pattern (or only the ones in our cosmos, for whatever reason) would automatically be evidence of perfect design and perfection.
And you do agree that "things being the way they are" does not make them perfect, although for some reason you wrote that perceiving them as "can be possibly better (are imperfect)" is flawed for some reason. I underlined the sentence that gave me that impression.
If percepts can be better (or are flawed), then you are saying that there are flaws/imperfections in the cosmos (although previous you wrote that you cannot judge things that simply are what they are). Which is why I pointed out that such a stance is self-contradicting.
hmmmm, there is design in nature but it has flaws. Is that what you are saying?
So what exactly is a “Perfecr design” as per YOUR human knowledge that you believe is limited?
Thank you Luminous for a perfect example of flawed logic: when you start with a premise that makes no sense like the idea that judgements are just what they are in the way that conditions and processes in the universe are simply what they are you ar going to come up with ridiculous conclusions like this because it becomes clear that there are some people who could not make a rational judgement to save their life.
hmmmm, there is design in nature but it has flaws. Is that what you are saying?
No, I don't think I accidentally wrote anything like that anywhere in that post. If I did, I would love for you to quote the sentence(s) for me that specifically led you to that belief. I will then be able to witness my mistake or quote to you sentences from that very same post (or if at all necessary: previous ones) that could contradict your interpretation and accurately clear up my point.
If I wanted to make a Twitter comment out of my post, I would say something more along the lines of: There are patterns in nature that don't need have to be designed, but they aren't as perfect as they could be for (or within) us sentient beings. As such, they can be properly viewed as flawed.
Quote:
So what exactly is a “Perfecr design” as per YOUR human knowledge that you believe is limited?
Stepping aside from the even more limiting religions and their even more limited drawn gods in THEIR pathetically venerated limited and limiting books ...
A "Perfect Design" would be An Infinite Number of Perfect Things (including entities, if such a thing could exist) that are Perfect One (if such a thing could exist) and Perfect Zero (if such a thing could exist). Nothing else. No flaws or imperfections anywhere. Nothing to change. Nothing to "fix later." Perfect. Always. In all ways.
Sort of like a very obvious logical definition of what "Perfect Design" would entail.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 05-02-2019 at 07:07 PM..
Thank you Luminous for a perfect example of flawed logic: when you start with a premise that makes no sense like the idea that judgements are just what they are in the way that conditions and processes in the universe are simply what they are you ar going to come up with ridiculous conclusions like this...
So you believe the premise that Judgements are just what they are? Yes.
But you don't think that Judgements are in the same "existential" category as natural universal processes under universal conditions?
1) What other categories do you think are acceptably evident?
2) How are human and animal judgments not processes in the universe that follow universal conditions?
Quote:
...because it becomes clear that there are some people who could not make a rational judgement to save their life.
Take a breath, nate. I think some arguers in this situation have already forfeited their lives to that which is wrong and incorrect. Most readers will be able to tell who is using logic and rationality in an even-handed manner with no biased, unfounded, or self-contradictory preconceptions and who has been relying first (and ultimately merely) on unfounded and unprovoked insults of their particular opponent in this discussion.
Thankfully, I can jovially throw similar meaningless and unhelpful cowardly insults right back at your direction...given that I can give myself 10-15 minutes to write out these responses and get around to such emotionally salient but ultimately meaningless drivel!
Imagine how much more effective your unpolished jerkish responses would be if I only had a maximum 1 minute to respond to such unhelpful antics!
Such was life before online typing forums, the horrors.
When faith guarantees you a place in paradise then what significant purpose of life is left?
Should I infer from this interminable argument over the logic of flaws in our Reality that solving this debate is "what significant purpose of life is left?"
No, I don't think I accidentally wrote anything like that anywhere in that post. If I did, I would love for you to quote the sentence(s) for me that specifically led you to that belief. I will then be able to witness my mistake or quote to you sentences from that very same post (or if at all necessary: previous ones) that could contradict your interpretation and accurately clear up my point.
If I wanted to make a Twitter comment out of my post, I would say something more along the lines of: There are patterns in nature that don't need have to be designed, but they aren't as perfect as they could be for (or within) us sentient beings. As such, they can be properly viewed as flawed.
Stepping aside from the even more limiting religions and their even more limited drawn gods in THEIR pathetically venerated limited and limiting books ...
A "Perfect Design" would be An Infinite Number of Perfect Things (including entities, if such a thing could exist) that are Perfect One (if such a thing could exist) and Perfect Zero (if such a thing could exist). Nothing else. No flaws or imperfections anywhere. Nothing to change. Nothing to "fix later." Perfect. Always. In all ways.
Sort of like a very obvious logical definition of what "Perfect Design" would entail.
I think you are not as confused as you are pretending to be.
There are patrerns in nature that are not designed. And there is no design in nature.
Is that what you are saying in a nutshell?
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...
Thankfully, I can jovially throw similar meaningless and unhelpful cowardly insults right back at your direction...given that I can give myself 10-15 minutes to write out these responses and get around to such emotionally salient but ultimately meaningless drivel! 
When faith guarantees you a place in paradise then what significant purpose of life is left?
