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If God created humankind "in His image and likeness", would it make sense that if WE have emotions that they came from God because God has emotions? Would His emotions be more 'perfect' than ours, simply because He IS God?
Of god created humankind "in hiis image and likeness", would it not make sense that things we think are overwhelming evil should be evil to god, as well?
People focus on the atrocities because it is what is inside their own hearts.
That is a false accusations. I don't support atrocities and have never been involved in them, in fact they sicken me. But folks like you wish us to believe that your God is perfect and loving and Just and to simply ignore all the bad things your book claims he has done. Gengis Khan was also probably a great guy if we sx use all the times he wasn't.
Question, if slavery and stoning are atrocities then why did your God regulate and request them? You obviously have similar opinions about those actions however you turn a blind eye to them in the Bible. Would you turn blind eye towards atrocities occurring in fron of you if they were not related to your God?
It sickens me that you have such disgusting opinions about fellow humans that are not willing to ignore the bad with the good on this one particular character or book. I've been faithful to my wife for over 4 decades and have no desire to own a slave or to stone to death anyone. Isn't there a Commandment that tells you not to make false testimony against your neighbour? An apology is in order but I won't hold my breath waiting for one.
I was responding to the claim that your God s perfect love and perfect just.
It sounds like you and the other poster above are just throwing out guesses since you both don't seem to know the answer either.
It's o.k. I don't take your questions as being facetious. I like to give the benefit of the doubt, unless it's something that's so obviously rude.
Even though I am Christian, I don't pretend to know all the answers. Someone may ask a question that I didn't even think about (yet). So, I propose certain possibilities. And, since I see God as a "good" God, I will see what He does as having "good" in it. But the "good" that I see can't be defined by limited human terms. It is Divine, and therefore beyond my comprehension.
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So how can anybody throw out terms like 'agape love' when nobody seems to know what it means. That only 'god knows' because we don't have his perspective.
Human beings also define "love" differently. When some hear the word "love", they automatically think of eros (that is, sexual). We define love of a marital partner differently than we define love of a parent, child, friend...or a complete stranger. Some can't even fathom what it means to "love" a stranger.
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In that case we cant make any claims at all about knowing anything about gods perspective, agape love included.
There is plenty of information about agape love online.
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Seems to me that agape love is just some kind of human construct projected onto an idea of god to help humans pretend he's all loving in nature.
And, for Christians, He is all loving in nature. This is not some "make believe" thing.
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If you are going to project human emotions you have to project all if it, not just the bit just the bit that makes you feel better
Perfect love is not an emotion? What is it actually? Your description are only words and mean nothing unless you already believe that your God is perfect. Stoning unruly children and adulterous people but allowing slavery , under few regulations, is perfect justice? Saying we are humans and can't understand God is simply excusing what you know is actually wrong. Saying love is not an emotion for God renders the use of the word love invalid in this content. It also contradicts the Christian posters who brag that unlike atheists they have agape love.
I don't expect a meaningful dialogue about the God of Christianity with someone (anyone) who doesn't acknowledge the existence of the God of Christianity. The Bible makes very clear, in both the OT and NT, that God's wisdom will appear as foolishness to the ungodly.
Much of the "sense" of Christianity hinges on being a Christian. The truths really don't unfold until one has embraced the faith. Until you have embraced the faith, much of Christian belief may well seem counterintuitive, nonsensical or even repulsive.
All that is required to embrace the faith is a conviction of one's own unworthiness and estrangement from God and one's need for forgiveness. In Christian belief, this occurs through God's calling and a convicting by the Holy Spirit. Someone who insists on approaching Christianity intellectually, waiting until it all makes sense and all objections have been satisfactorily answered, likely will resist God's calling and never become a Christian.
Perfect love, perfect holiness and perfect justice are God's nature. They are not emotions. Love is not intrinsic to the nature of humans. They may be loving, but they are not incapable of being unloving.
What you call "excusing" God, Christians call "trusting" God. If Christians claim agape love, they mean the divine love that expresses itself as they allow the Holy Spirit to flow through them.
I don't expect a meaningful dialogue about the God of Christianity with someone (anyone) who doesn't acknowledge the existence of the God of Christianity. The Bible makes very clear, in both the OT and NT, that God's wisdom will appear as foolishness to the ungodly.
nipped for spcae.
The only question is who is calling what what? Is our questioning the bible foolish or is your presentation of the bible foolish? does emotion look foolish to logic? does logic look foolish to emotion?
round and round we go until we start anchoring the claims in what we know vs anchoring the claims in what we don't know. then the circle stops.
I will give you this. How people describe the god in bible is how that person sees the world.
I know that the Westminster Confession of Faith that many Protestant Churches hold to describes God as being "without body parts or passions." I don't believe that. I believe that God feels love, sorrow, and relief. To me, He is a God who weeps.
Certainly, but these are expressions of God's nature. They aren't human passions. For that matter, they aren't human love, sorrow and relief. Because God is an eternal and transcendent being, it's a mistake to read human emotions into his character. Although I am a Christian, I believe one of the great truths is the first line of the Tao Te Ching: The Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao. It's inevitable that we as humans "anthropomporhize" God, but it's a danger as well because then we make him subject to the very sort of atheist objections we see on these forums.
I don't expect a meaningful dialogue about the God of Christianity with someone (anyone) who doesn't acknowledge the existence of the God of Christianity. The Bible makes very clear, in both the OT and NT, that God's wisdom will appear as foolishness to the ungodly.
Much of the "sense" of Christianity hinges on being a Christian. The truths really don't unfold until one has embraced the faith. Until you have embraced the faith, much of Christian belief may well seem counterintuitive, nonsensical or even repulsive.
All that is required to embrace the faith is a conviction of one's own unworthiness and estrangement from God and one's need for forgiveness. In Christian belief, this occurs through God's calling and a convicting by the Holy Spirit. Someone who insists on approaching Christianity intellectually, waiting until it all makes sense and all objections have been satisfactorily answered, likely will resist God's calling and never become a Christian.
Perfect love, perfect holiness and perfect justice are God's nature. They are not emotions. Love is not intrinsic to the nature of humans. They may be loving, but they are not incapable of being unloving.
What you call "excusing" God, Christians call "trusting" God. If Christians claim agape love, they mean the divine love that expresses itself as they allow the Holy Spirit to flow through them.
Fair enough. Please remember that this is not the Christianity forum and we have seen many posters claim that they have agape love because their Christians and then proceed to unashamedly a string of hateful statements that can be looked at in no way other than intended to cause whatever harm they can.
You are a decent poster and are willing to explain rather than lash out. I simply find it unbelievable that it is so easy for Christians to dismiss the horids that are also found in the Bible, many at the same time then proclaim the Quran as a wicked book because it has some of the same stuff in it.
You are a decent poster and are willing to explain rather than lash out. I simply find it unbelievable that it is so easy for Christians to dismiss the horids that are also found in the Bible, many at the same time then proclaim the Quran as a wicked book because it has some of the same stuff in it.
The only question is who is calling what what? Is our questioning the bible foolish or is your presentation of the bible foolish? does emotion look foolish to logic? does logic look foolish to emotion?
round and round we go until we start anchoring the claims in what we know vs anchoring the claims in what we don't know. then the circle stops.
I will give you this. How people describe the god in bible is how that person sees the world.
For someone who isn't a Christian to question the Bible or the God of the Bible isn't foolish. It's part of a legitimate quest for truth.
For a Christian to try to convince someone such as yourself by using the Bible is foolish, for the reasons I stated.
This is why mature Christians understand that all the Great Commission from Jesus requires us to do is present the Gospel message. If and when the time is right for the hearer, God does the calling and the Holy Spirit does the convicting. Unless and until that occurs, the Bible and the Gospel message will seem to be foolishness.
Christians do anchor their claims in what they know. The problem is, this knowing occurs only after one has taken the leap of faith.
I did all sorts of questioning and searching, even after I was born again. God's call and convicting occurred before I even understood what was going on. The questioning and searching eventually led back to a conviction that Christianity provided the best explanation for reality, but the knowing didn't occur until after I had made a real commitment.
For someone who isn't a Christian to question the Bible or the God of the Bible isn't foolish. It's part of a legitimate quest for truth.
For a Christian to try to convince someone such as yourself by using the Bible is foolish, for the reasons I stated.
This is why mature Christians understand that all the Great Commission from Jesus requires us to do is present the Gospel message. If and when the time is right for the hearer, God does the calling and the Holy Spirit does the convicting. Unless and until that occurs, the Bible and the Gospel message will seem to be foolishness.
Christians do anchor their claims in what they know. The problem is, this knowing occurs only after one has taken the leap of faith.
I did all sorts of questioning and searching, even after I was born again. God's call and convicting occurred before I even understood what was going on. The questioning and searching eventually led back to a conviction that Christianity provided the best explanation for reality, but the knowing didn't occur until after I had made a real commitment.
again, is the reason you can't convince because I am foolish? or the christian is foolish? Are you presenting what the holy spirit is actually saying?
then, what is really more important to me, is how we present the story to people that are learning. Do we offer everything we know in an an honest an open format to let them decide or do we close off some ideas to lead them [wherever]?
a guy dying and rising for our sins is not the best we can do. compassion, understanding, and forgiveness, is great stuff.
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