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Correct. I don't see where discussion of what gravity actually is or how it works (or what we don't know about that) relates to the origins of life, which is the topic. Unless the idea is the apologetic of 'science doesn't know everything, therefor it doesn't know anything, therefore nobody knows how life started, therefore Goddunnit is the best explanation because atheistic science doesn't have one' is the argument.
I've heard it before.
This is obviously correct. Gravity exists. Get used to it. Other than holding things onto the earth's surface, it seems to have virtually nothing to do with "The Beginning Of Life" (you know, the topic of this thread.
Also, time passes, and that fact seems to be irrelevant to "The Beginning Of Life" (you know, the topic of this thread.
You said "gravity is not the product of mass on space/time". My link is showing is that you are wrong.
So once again the immaterial requires a medium.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
No gravity is not the product of mass on space/time Harry. Gravity is that which effects mass on space/time.
You are still saying what we observe about the effects of gravity is gravity. That is the same as saying effect and effect instead of cause and effect.
all you are doing is saying what gravity does and not explaining the laws of gravity themselves. In other words you do not have a cause and effect you have an effect that you call the cause. Your whole argument goes against the law of cause and effect.
the difference between what I said and you said is that you are saying gravity is the product of mass on space/time and I am saying gravity effects mass on space/time.
That is your argument, but it is irrelevant to my point that the immaterial needs a 'material' source, from space time to brains.
We have no evidence for an immaterial conscious intelligence, every single data point we have require material brains. You can believe in an immaterial conscious intelligence, but without any evidence one can exist, we have no reason to believe you.
But talking of space time, I am going to leave this space as it is time for a beer.
ya me too Harry. I think it is time to let this rest for now, good talking with you again.
This is obviously correct. Gravity exists. Get used to it. Other than holding things onto the earth's surface, it seems to have virtually nothing to do with "The Beginning Of Life" (you know, the topic of this thread.
Also, time passes, and that fact seems to be irrelevant to "The Beginning Of Life" (you know, the topic of this thread.
Let's discuss the topic.
no what is obvious is that you have not been following mine and Harry's debate because if you had it would have been obvious what my point was and what it pointed to. And that point has to do with the beginning of life.
right now, our physics is based on "contact" and "time". meaning something has to touch something to transfer the energy. QM is pointing to "contact" may not have to take place. But they think its more about we just don't know what is contacting yet.
Time, is another thing. How could we describe velocity without time?
When they solve those two issue that will be pretty cool.
But none of that proves a thing made us. Like we think of making things anyway.
alive" matches what we see. "designed like a car" does not. to me any way.
My computer is freaking out. I offered some responses about consciousness being a little more universal than we might expect and thus possibly creating life, but my computer is acting paranoid and I didn't feel like retyping it.
rest assured, we can show that the consciousness may be a property, its just my computer can't handle the truth.
Are you able to answer the simple question without invoking the idea of God?
In your opinion... did time begin with the origin of the universe? Yes or no?
Probably not. That's the best answer I can give you. What we observe is an unbroken chain of cause and effect. Every effect is the result of an earlier cause. Which implies that the big bang was the effect of an earlier cause. So I am inclined to think that there was something going on before the big bang occurred. Just as you are. You, on the other hand, would cap it all off with an eternal God. A God who had no beginning. But what we observe is that the universe is composed of matter, matter is a form of energy, and energy can neither be created or destroyed. In which case it is eternal. But is energy intelligent? That depends on one's definition of intelligence. Humans are self aware and humans are made of matter. So matter can attain conscious thought. It appears however that the universe operates entirely on it's own, naturally, with no intelligence required. Matter continuously and naturally interacts with itself through a process known as quantum mechanics, producing constant change. Time is a by-product of change.
Our universe was "born" with the big bang. You and I were also born. Organic life is the result of organic chemistry, driven by quantum mechanics, in action. But the material we are made of existed prior to our conception. You and I are the effect of an earlier cause. There is no reason to suppose that the universe is not also the effect of an earlier cause. The exact nature of that cause is the subject of debate.
Could there be a God? Well, since we don't currently have a definitive answer to the question of ultimate origin, the answer is yes. Is a God necessary? It does not appear so. The concept of God does not serve to answer the question of ultimate origin.
It does appear that the concept of God is necessary to satisfy the emotional well being of some individuals. But not all. The possibility of the existence of a God Being does not protect the various stories and claims contained in the Bible from being pretty darned childlike, contradictory and therefore unbelievable, however.
Albert Einstein: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions." -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.
Probably not. That's the best answer I can give you. What we observe is an unbroken chain of cause and effect. Every effect is the result of an earlier cause. Which implies that the big bang was the effect of an earlier cause. So I am inclined to think that there was something going on before the big bang occurred. Just as you are. You, on the other hand, would cap it all off with an eternal God. A God who had no beginning. But what we observe is that the universe is composed of matter, matter is a form of energy, and energy can neither be created or destroyed. In which case it is eternal. But is energy intelligent? That depends on one's definition of intelligence. Humans are self aware and humans are made of matter. So matter can attain conscious thought. It appears however that the universe operates entirely on it's own, naturally, with no intelligence required. Matter continuously and naturally interacts with itself through a process known as quantum mechanics, producing constant change. Time is a by-product of change.
Our universe was "born" with the big bang. You and I were also born. Organic life is the result of organic chemistry, driven by quantum mechanics, in action. But the material we are made of existed prior to our conception. You and I are the effect of an earlier cause. There is no reason to suppose that the universe is not also the effect of an earlier cause. The exact nature of that cause is the subject of debate.
Could there be a God? Well, since we don't currently have a definitive answer to the question of ultimate origin, the answer is yes. Is a God necessary? It does not appear so. The concept of God does not serve to answer the question of ultimate origin.
It does appear that the concept of God is necessary to satisfy the emotional well being of some individuals. But not all. The possibility of the existence of a God Being does not protect the various stories and claims contained in the Bible from being pretty darned childlike, contradictory and therefore unbelievable, however.
Albert Einstein: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions." -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.
Hi TotN. Thanks for explaining. I am familiar with your reasoning from our previous exchanges, but it’s nice to see it summarized, as you’ve done here.
It’s my understanding that you’re open to the idea of an eternally existing energy, and you’re also open to the idea that a god of some kind exists, but you’ve ruled out the God of the Bible as a possibility. Is that right?
Hi TotN. Thanks for explaining. I am familiar with your reasoning from our previous exchanges, but it’s nice to see it summarized, as you’ve done here.
It’s my understanding that you’re open to the idea of an eternally existing energy, and you’re also open to the idea that a god of some kind exists, but you’ve ruled out the God of the Bible as a possibility. Is that right?
You should stop playing into their hands by referring to the "God of the Bible" as if that is an accurate portrayal. It is the God believed in BY those ancients who wrote the Bible.
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