The Beginning of Life (soul, hell, atheist, quote)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
My wife and I (and dog) had the pleasure of spending most of last week high up Mt. Lassen, well out of CPR. Truly an amazing National Forest/park where one can enjoy as we did an incredible variety of natural beauty, a geologist's dream given the array of evidence going back millions of years up to very recent, wild life running around in all variety of habitat, full of trees, rivers and lakes at high elevations. If a sense of the magesty of it all far as the eye can see doesn't put you in a state of awe, nothing will. To top it all off are the many hydrothermal spots where I found myself imaging where/how life began. Places like the "The Devil's Kitchen" and "Bumpass Hell." We sat and watched the mud being flung high up into the air by boiling pressures rising from deep below our feet. Where once stood the mighty Mount Tehama. Places where you would think no life can survive, but even there nevertheless are the extremophiles...
I imagined what the first explorers must have thought when for the first time they came across the likes. No doubt the work of the devil would be a first conclusion for most of those folks back then.
For me it's always inspiration to imagine how life began in such a place. The question of questions of course. As an atheist I thought it strange to find myself lured by notions of creation. Again seriously pondering the amazing mystery. Asking myself yet again how that jump from non-life to life could possibly happen. Given all the theories along those lines, theological, scientific and all in between, I find the religious versions the hardest to take seriously, but how can such a thing occur without some sort of intelligent design? Some sort of trigger or creator? I wondered about (imagined) some THING that found a way to create the most minuscule of life seeds, somehow dispersed in the Big Bang, to do it's thing wherever it might find a foothold to do so. How could such a THING not be the case?
Right, but then back to the nagging question as to how that THING was created. Whatever you want to call that THING. There's the rub...
Reluctantly I found myself yet again forced to accept we just don't know yet, but I always find it comforting to recognize we do know enough, have learned enough, to dismiss what we really should not believe. Equally comforting is the thought that life, no matter how it miraculously came to be, involves no judgement by a creator. Life is just a spectacular event, part of the cosmic show, that we are simply blessed to be a part. No different from all other life forms with equally diverse characteristics of all sorts, from most basic and simple to most complex and intelligent. That mix that is a result of that "seed" that promotes whatever works best, even in boiling hydrothermal pools...
How close or far are you to thinking same thing as I do? And why?
My wife and I (and dog) had the pleasure of spending most of last week high up Mt. Lassen, well out of CPR. Truly an amazing National Forest/park where one can enjoy as we did an incredible variety of natural beauty, a geologist's dream given the array of evidence going back millions of years up to very recent, wild life running around in all variety of habitat, full of trees, rivers and lakes at high elevations. If a sense of the magesty of it all far as the eye can see doesn't put you in a state of awe, nothing will. To top it all off are the many hydrothermal spots where I found myself imaging where/how life began. Places like the "The Devil's Kitchen" and "Bumpass Hell." We sat and watched the mud being flung high up into the air by boiling pressures rising from deep below our feet. Where once stood the mighty Mount Tehama. Places where you would think no life can survive, but even there nevertheless are the extremophiles...
I imagined what the first explorers must have thought when for the first time they came across the likes. No doubt the work of the devil would be a first conclusion for most of those folks back then.
For me it's always inspiration to imagine how life began in such a place. The question of questions of course. As an atheist I thought it strange to find myself lured by notions of creation. Again seriously pondering the amazing mystery. Asking myself yet again how that jump from non-life to life could possibly happen. Given all the theories along those lines, theological, scientific and all in between, I find the religious versions the hardest to take seriously, but how can such a thing occur without some sort of intelligent design? Some sort of trigger or creator? I wondered about (imagined) some THING that found a way to create the most minuscule of life seeds, somehow dispersed in the Big Bang, to do it's thing wherever it might find a foothold to do so. How could such a THING not be the case?
Right, but then back to the nagging question as to how that THING was created. Whatever you want to call that THING. There's the rub...
Reluctantly I found myself yet again forced to accept we just don't know yet, but I always find it comforting to recognize we do know enough, have learned enough, to dismiss what we really should not believe. Equally comforting is the thought that life, no matter how it miraculously came to be, involves no judgement by a creator. Life is just a spectacular event, part of the cosmic show, that we are simply blessed to be a part. No different from all other life forms with equally diverse characteristics of all sorts, from most basic and simple to most complex and intelligent. That mix that is a result of that "seed" that promotes whatever works best, even in boiling hydrothermal pools...
How close or far are you to thinking same thing as I do? And why?
Interesting post, and your thoughts do, to a large extent mirror my own.
As a kid growing up, my grandparents often took me on outings, and while I didn't think of them as "hikes", per se...they sort of were. There were glens we frequently visited in Naples, NY (where part of my family was from) where there were features such as "The Devil's Bedroom", and the like. And I remember a particular barn in the area that had "the Devil's head" (man-made, of course) stuck on a pole. When I was 10 and 11, my grandparents took me on two trips "out West", including Yellowstone. And these experiences led, eventually, to earning two degrees in geology, with an emphasis on invertebrate paleontology. That's when the questioning (not denial) about god really began. I was quite impressed with the work of Stanley Miller (and others)...not that they were necessarily correct, but they were looking at alternatives to the biblical version of life. And at that time -- in the 1970s -- so much work was being done to refine the concept of evolution (it's way beyond a theory nw), plate tectonics, continental drift, etc., that we can see science explaining much of what man used to assume was just god doing "stuff".
And then there was my move to Arizona about 18 months ago. Anyone who thinks nothing grows in a desert...I have been flabbergasted to see the various types of cactus and other arid plants that can literally go several months without a drop of rain.
But back to the geology. We now pretty much understand how continents were created and weathered away. All natural processes.
Is there a god? Maybe. But I lean toward natural processes. Someone may be able to re-convince me, but not some of the christian clowns we have on here (and I am not talking about all christians, or even all christians on here).
A person can be spiritual but an atheist. There is a sense of wonder. Part of the "problem" as it were, is our own limitations of language and knowledge. My brother often and for decades has agonized over creation. I worry about a lot of things, but just accept we don't know and take my part in the universe.
Interesting post, and your thoughts do, to a large extent mirror my own.
As a kid growing up, my grandparents often took me on outings, and while I didn't think of them as "hikes", per se...they sort of were. There were glens we frequently visited in Naples, NY (where part of my family was from) where there were features such as "The Devil's Bedroom", and the like. And I remember a particular barn in the area that had "the Devil's head" (man-made, of course) stuck on a pole. When I was 10 and 11, my grandparents took me on two trips "out West", including Yellowstone. And these experiences led, eventually, to earning two degrees in geology, with an emphasis on invertebrate paleontology. That's when the questioning (not denial) about god really began. I was quite impressed with the work of Stanley Miller (and others)...not that they were necessarily correct, but they were looking at alternatives to the biblical version of life. And at that time -- in the 1970s -- so much work was being done to refine the concept of evolution (it's way beyond a theory nw), plate tectonics, continental drift, etc., that we can see science explaining much of what man used to assume was just god doing "stuff".
And then there was my move to Arizona about 18 months ago. Anyone who thinks nothing grows in a desert...I have been flabbergasted to see the various types of cactus and other arid plants that can literally go several months without a drop of rain.
But back to the geology. We now pretty much understand how continents were created and weathered away. All natural processes.
Is there a god? Maybe. But I lean toward natural processes. Someone may be able to re-convince me, but not some of the christian clowns we have on here (and I am not talking about all christians, or even all christians on here).
Types of cactus...
On our way back home from Mt. Lassen, we were pleased to discover the park at the end of Sundial Bridge in Redding, California.
There is a park and walk along the river at both ends of the bridge, including a very cool/large botanical garden. Botanical gardens are always a favorite thing for us to check out wherever we can. The bridge and park are both worth the stop, and as always with botanical gardens, the variety of plants (including cactus) just adds to the "wonder of it all."
A person can be spiritual but an atheist. There is a sense of wonder. Part of the "problem" as it were, is our own limitations of language and knowledge. My brother often and for decades has agonized over creation. I worry about a lot of things, but just accept we don't know and take my part in the universe.
I know what you mean, but given the definition of spiritual...
1. relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
2. relating to religion or religious belief.
I can't really claim to be spiritual. Not accurately anyway.
As an atheist who has always had that "sense of wonder," however, I'd just as soon avoid any labels and simply continue to express a true appreciation for the wonder of nature, and all the rest of the universe for that matter. Seems we agree it's best to accept what we don't know and to take part as best we can.
"Live life like you mean it!" As some might say. To that end I think it's time for me to sign off from this forum again this morning. To get on with doing a bit more of exactly that!
There is a park and walk along the river at both ends of the bridge, including a very cool/large botanical garden. Botanical gardens are always a favorite thing for us to check out wherever we can. The bridge and park are both worth the stop, and as always with botanical gardens, the variety of plants (including cactus) just adds to the "wonder of it all."
Check out Phoenix's botanical garden if you get down this way. Just amazing...and huge!
Any idea of life having beginning or, a particular universe having beginning, can not withstand scrutiny, even basic, from logical consideration. The ONLY concept, that fits such idea, is creation but, then question arises, where did creator come from and, it all goes back to the first sentence.
But, this is for those, who can think in terms of eternity. Not measured terms of existence of anything.
My wife and I (and dog) had the pleasure of spending most of last week high up Mt. Lassen, well out of CPR. Truly an amazing National Forest/park where one can enjoy as we did an incredible variety of natural beauty, a geologist's dream given the array of evidence going back millions of years up to very recent, wild life running around in all variety of habitat, full of trees, rivers and lakes at high elevations. If a sense of the magesty of it all far as the eye can see doesn't put you in a state of awe, nothing will. To top it all off are the many hydrothermal spots where I found myself imaging where/how life began. Places like the "The Devil's Kitchen" and "Bumpass Hell." We sat and watched the mud being flung high up into the air by boiling pressures rising from deep below our feet. Where once stood the mighty Mount Tehama. Places where you would think no life can survive, but even there nevertheless are the extremophiles...
There was a paper that looked at probable early genes suggests life started at hydrothermal vents, so the extremophiles would be normal, and our cool loving genes would be the extremophiles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
For me it's always inspiration to imagine how life began in such a place. The question of questions of course. As an atheist I thought it strange to find myself lured by notions of creation. Again seriously pondering the amazing mystery. Asking myself yet again how that jump from non-life to life could possibly happen. Given all the theories along those lines, theological, scientific and all in between, I find the religious versions the hardest to take seriously, but how can such a thing occur without some sort of intelligent design? Some sort of trigger or creator? I wondered about (imagined) some THING that found a way to create the most minuscule of life seeds, somehow dispersed in the Big Bang, to do it's thing wherever it might find a foothold to do so. How could such a THING not be the case?
The problem here is the distinction between life and non-life. Life is just an internal chemical reaction that reproduces and replicated itself. Life is a subset of chemistry, it is not distinct from chemistry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Reluctantly I found myself yet again forced to accept we just don't know yet, but I always find it comforting to recognize we do know enough, have learned enough, to dismiss what we really should not believe. Equally comforting is the thought that life, no matter how it miraculously came to be, involves no judgement by a creator. Life is just a spectacular event, part of the cosmic show, that we are simply blessed to be a part. No different from all other life forms with equally diverse characteristics of all sorts, from most basic and simple to most complex and intelligent. That mix that is a result of that "seed" that promotes whatever works best, even in boiling hydrothermal pools...
How close or far are you to thinking same thing as I do? And why?
Is life 'miraculous' or spectacular? Considering what life is, it might be common. Complex, multicellular may be the difficult, spectacular part.
There is a park and walk along the river at both ends of the bridge, including a very cool/large botanical garden. Botanical gardens are always a favorite thing for us to check out wherever we can. The bridge and park are both worth the stop, and as always with botanical gardens, the variety of plants (including cactus) just adds to the "wonder of it all."
I visited this place on my 2018 trip. Loved it. If there is one thing to focus a spotlight on the question of adaptation vs. Intelligent design, it is butterflies and moths (They have both, here (some are socking Huge ) They also have a good indoor zoo of wrigglies.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) They also have a good indoor zoo of wrigglies. 