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thats not really what we are saying. What we are saying is that a deity with the traits you describe could remove suffering and us not even know about it. The trait we are questioning is it doesn't seem like it can" snap its finger" and change things.
But that's because your *belief* is that not only "should" a deity have the ability to do that, but also the DESIRE to do so, IF that deity is "loving".
Could God remove suffering with us not even knowing about it? Sure.
But why SHOULD He? And I think THAT'S more of a bigger question.
But that's because your *belief* is that not only "should" a deity have the ability to do that, but also the DESIRE to do so, IF that deity is "loving".
Could God remove suffering with us not even knowing about it? Sure.
But why SHOULD He? And I think THAT'S more of a bigger question.
This is where just plain all commonsense comes in. A entity that is that smart and that loving understands that needless (key word here is needless) suffering just doesn't seem like what rational smart, loving, all power things do.
But do you see how we approach the question from different angles? I really do not care if there is or is not a deity. If its there, it will have commonsense, reason, and empathy.
When it comes to people claiming that prayer works, I am always tempted to tell them how they can prove that prayer works and convert me to whatever religion they believe in before the next Monday. So far, anyone I've put it to has never even tried, but come up with excuses as to why they shouldn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
I don't think that anyONE can 'convert' you, Trans. To me, only God can cause you to have a change of heart. No matter how much I pray about it, if God doesn't want this for you, then no amount of praying is going to change His mind. Or yours.
Plus, they may not have tried to 'prove' anything to you, because they already know you well enough, that even if they DID pray for you, and if the prayer WAS answered, you wouldn't believe it.
Ok, several angles to your post so I've just chosen to address the bolded.
First of all that would being judgmental and you know what Jesus said about being judgmental. Secondly it's making decisions for God. I don't recall there being anything in the bible against or for making decisions for God, so OK. Thirdly, it would mean that God has already decided that Trans is not going to be 'saved'. There goes free will out the window - predestined, so to speak. Sorry Trans, your salvation is out of our hands - you're a gonner!
Hey Mink, sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you. It's just that you make good arguments so you know .... and you always come back with clever
answers!
. I’m sure there is at least a few people that have prayed for the impossible to happen.
....
I had a girlfriend once who has suffered polio as a child, leaving her one leg crippled. She had had steel pins put in at some stage to lengthen her leg but that was only partially successful.
Anyway, she became a born again Christian and on one occasion she went to a miracle healer to have her leg healed. Well, she swore that her leg grew before her very eyes. What can I say? She believed it but I could see there was no difference. I said nothing.
There was another instance in which this miracle preacher made public claims that he would heal the sick and raise the lame out of there wheel chairs in public! God had commanded him to demonstrate God's powers and prove to the world for once and for all that he was real. So a public venue was set up in front of national TV. On the night of the event which was being broadcast live, the first person to com up to be healed was a wheelchair bound lame person. After the due passionate praying, the miracle healer pastor commanded the now healed man to gup out of his wheelchair and walk!
National TV, live, for the whole country to witness.
This is where just plain all commonsense comes in. A entity that is that smart and that loving understands that needless (key word here is needless) suffering just doesn't seem like what rational smart, loving, all power things do.
But that's just it, Arach. WHO says it's "needless"? Sometimes "suffering" is exactly what's needed to bring others to God.
Quote:
But do you see how we approach the question from different angles? I really do not care if there is or is not a deity. if its there, it will have commonsense, reason, and empathy.
Depends on how *you* see "common sense, reason and empathy". Maybe YOUR definition isn't the same as God's.
Let's go back in time for a moment...
Let's say that God has this idea--billions of years ago-- that He's going to create a universe. Planets, stars, solar systems, and the like. He also wants to create people. Now, does He have the ability to create people to ONLY "love" him? To be robots? Of course. But...
...what good would THAT do? You'd think that He'd get the 'worship' He wanted if He created EVERYONE to "love" Him.
I mean, really Arach. What DO you want? A God who didn't create people at all? A God who created people without a will of their own, a.k.a., a bunch of robots? To create people who He would slap down, anytime they got out of line? Or, something OTHER than what I proposed?
Ok, several angles to your post so I've just chosen to address the bolded.
First of all that would being judgmental and you know what Jesus said about being judgmental. Secondly it's making decisions for God. I don't recall there being anything in the bible against or for making decisions for God, so OK. Thirdly, it would mean that God has already decided that Trans is not going to be 'saved'. There goes free will out the window - predestined, so to speak. Sorry Trans, your salvation is out of our hands - you're a gonner!
Hey Mink, sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you. It's just that you make good arguments so you know .... and you always come back with clever
answers!
Which is why I enjoy your posts.
I don’t mean to interrupt your conversation, but I wanted to try to provide clarification...
If God is real, He is timeless, spaceless and immaterial. Time, space and matter would be His creations. Temporal notions, such as decisions being made, within time, is not experienced in a comparable way by a timeless entity who is outside of time.
Free will can exist within time, allowing a person to decide to accept or reject God, even if God knows, in a non-temporal way, what decision a person is going to make. “God knew ahead of time” is a nonsense statement because God is outside of the time the humans experience. Does that make sense?
I don’t mean to interrupt your conversation, but I wanted to try to provide clarification...
If God is real, He is timeless, spaceless and immaterial. Time, space and matter would be His creations. Temporal notions, such as decisions being made, within time, is not experienced in a comparable way by a timeless entity who is outside of time.
Free will can exist within time, allowing a person to decide to accept or reject God, even if God knows, in a non-temporal way, what decision a person is going to make. “God knew ahead of time” is a nonsense statement because God is outside of the time the humans experience. Does that make sense?
None whatsoever! The time we experience is only the time we can experience and measure AFTER our consciousness has formed during the quantum time (or REAL time as Whitehead phrased it "the creative advance of nature"). Time is never absent since God is a living Being and living mandates time. The fact that our creative imaginations are able to concoct ridiculous notions like timelessness or Omni-whatever does NOT mean any such things are possible or rational. They are, in fact, quite IRRATIONAL!
But that's just it, Arach. WHO says it's "needless"? Sometimes "suffering" is exactly what's needed to bring others to God.
nipped for space
But what about GOD'S point of view?
I agree ... if it aint needless ... then it isn't all powerful. I am totally ok with a thing there but it is not all powerful.
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It's just that you make good arguments so you know .... and you always come back with clever
