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Don't overthink it. We ONLY control how we respond to "whatever" happens in our lives.
Right. But where does this response come from? That also is controlled by our neural wiring, our genetics, the subtle or not so subtle influences of biological and social pressure. Let’s say we are trying to achieve a goal and something happens to thwart that. We can “choose” to get around the obstacle in a number of ways. But where did our perception of the obstacle come from? Or the desire to reach our goal? Or the goal itself? Where did the ideation of the various ways to overcome the obstacle come from? We don’t really choose to think certain ideas or have certain desires. They just come. Of course, you can have two competing desires and you can choose one over the other. But what “makes” you do this?
Let’s say I want to get a good job. Why do I want a job? Or is it unconscious social conformity?
I think all our ideas and desires and strategies are not free choices, they are just something that someone with our exact neural wiring and our exact experience in exactly our circumstances would do.
When I say I don’t believe in free will, people say: “Well, why don’t you just lie around and not do anything all day?” And the answer to that is that I don’t want to lie around all day and do nothing because I don’t believe it will make me happy in the long run. But where did my desire to be happy in the long run come from? What makes me believe that this will probably involve having enough money (even though human beings lived for millennial without any money at all). Are these desires and conceptions my “free” choice? Hardly!
I grew up in a conservative Lutheran (Missouri Synod) church and home. In college for a while I participated in a fundamentalist, born-again group. One of the things I could never understand was how do you submit to God’s will? How do you know the difference between God’s will, your will, your pastor’s will, and society’s will (conventional wisdom/what you “should” do)? Absolutely no one could tell me how to figure that out. At the most I got platitudes like: “You need to open your heart and mind to God and then you will know.” But I didn’t know. It was always a complete muddle.
Since I deconverted many years ago, I have become a deterministic atheist. That’s right — I don’t believe in free will. Or rather I believe that the experience of free will is a very strong illusion. But recently I realized that there is really little difference between my position and that of the strictest, most deterministic Calvinism (without the hell or heaven). Now I know that submitting to God’s will is merely “submitting to reality” “accepting what is” which we all do anyway (more or less reluctantly).
Interestingly, I realized this when I was reading about who fears death the most — the religious or the atheists. According to one study I read (I will try to dredge it up if I have time later), the people who feared death the least were the extremely religious and the atheists, while those who feared it the most tended to be in the middle of the religiosity spectrum. I wonder if this is partly because both the extremely religious and the atheists have completely submitted themselves to God’s will, the only difference being that, while the religious understand this attitude as submitting to God’s will, the atheist sees it as submitting to a deterministic reality.
Thoughts?
Interesting, thanks.
To be sure though, you never met anyone that was born again, all those people in Paul's church weren't even born again after 30 years and they were in the religion of Jesus, what chance did you ever have to experience being born again?
Alot if Christian's wake up one day and find out that Christianity and it's supposed powerful holy spirit ain't doing nothin for nobody. People then judge the first Christianity by the false narrative of modern Christian's who are not born, who have no holy spirit, who dont even practice the same religion as Christ.
Paul taught his converts the times and seasons of Judaism and how you must mature in Judaism before you can ever be born again.
40 years after Christ, Paul doubted that any of his Gentile converts would ever have Christ formed in them to be born again, and they certainly could not have had a holy spirit from the fact that the holy spirit ONLY comes after one is mature in the scriptures to be born again.
A billion Christian's are practicing a lawless pagan religion presenting themselves to be filled by a holy spirit they couldnt possibly have because they arent even in Judaism.
Christians presenting themselves as if they had some link with the first Gntiles who converted to Judaism and became Israel.
The covenant is only for Israel and Judah, the first Gentiles became Israel and very few even obtain the spirit then.
A modern lawless pagan Christian has Zero chance of becoming born again, with a spirit.
I am not born again yet myself and I have spent 20 years studying Judaism, wasted 30 years in Christianity with no hope of ever being born again.
A born again person can ask anything of God and have no doubt that he will receive anything he asks for.
I can see alot of Christian's becoming Atheist because they thought modern Christianity had something to do with the first Christianity, but modern Christian's have no power to do anything at all.
Shssshh, I dont think I believe in freewill either, how could there be, I mean, given he rules of relativity, what is has always been, written before we born
Right. But where does this response come from? That also is controlled by our neural wiring, our genetics, the subtle or not so subtle influences of biological and social pressure. Let’s say we are trying to achieve a goal and something happens to thwart that. We can “choose” to get around the obstacle in a number of ways. But where did our perception of the obstacle come from? Or the desire to reach our goal? Or the goal itself? Where did the ideation of the various ways to overcome the obstacle come from? We don’t really choose to think certain ideas or have certain desires. They just come. Of course, you can have two competing desires and you can choose one over the other. But what “makes” you do this?
Let’s say I want to get a good job. Why do I want a job? Or is it unconscious social conformity?
I think all our ideas and desires and strategies are not free choices, they are just something that someone with our exact neural wiring and our exact experience in exactly our circumstances would do.
When I say I don’t believe in free will, people say: “Well, why don’t you just lie around and not do anything all day?” And the answer to that is that I don’t want to lie around all day and do nothing because I don’t believe it will make me happy in the long run. But where did my desire to be happy in the long run come from? What makes me believe that this will probably involve having enough money (even though human beings lived for millennial without any money at all). Are these desires and conceptions my “free” choice? Hardly!
You ignored my caution to not overthink it. The latest advances in quantum theories refute the determinism you rely on. Besides even if your choices are only an illusion, as you believe, they are still YOUR choices for all practical purposes, your desire to pretend that you are not making the choices notwithstanding.
You ignored my caution to not overthink it. The latest advances in quantum theories refute the determinism you rely on. Besides even if your choices are only an illusion, as you believe, they are still YOUR choices for all practical purposes, your desire to pretend that you are not making the choices notwithstanding.
No such thing as “overthinking.” It’s just called “thinking.”
Quantum theory. Used and abused by everyone from postmodernists to new age thinkers. I agree that there might be an element of randomness to our acts and thoughts, but this randomness doesn’t somehow translate into “free will.” In fact, it suggests the opposite.
“My” choices? But who am I really? All identities are fictional constructions. “I” am not the same person or the same body from moment to moment. It is just our choice to remember certain things and invest them with importance (and ignore other things) that let’s us construct some kind of not really truthful narrative of who we are.
No such thing as “overthinking.” It’s just called “thinking.”
Quantum theory. Used and abused by everyone from postmodernists to new age thinkers. I agree that there might be an element of randomness to our acts and thoughts, but this randomness doesn’t somehow translate into “free will.” In fact, it suggests the opposite.
“My” choices? But who am I really? All identities are fictional constructions. “I” am not the same person or the same body from moment to moment. It is just our choice to remember certain things and invest them with importance (and ignore other things) that let’s us construct some kind of not really truthful narrative of who we are.
As ubiquitous as this view seems to be among atheists, I remain astounded at the ease with which you can deny your own existence. It is the only thing you personally and unequivocally experience that does not require second-hand confirmation. It is baffling.
I don't get the "submitting to God's will" thing. I find spirituality as motivating and freeing; not something forced or done in obligation. It's more of living a life like Christ; something freely done through desire. No pushing or submission involved. It would be 'free will', since entirely free to choose.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 05-11-2021 at 05:38 PM..
HOW ON EARTH are people (especially people who call themselves atheists) giving thumbs up to the idea that there is no "free will"? HOW ON EARTH are people giving thumbs up to the idea that "whatever will be, will be"?
Are you all delusional? I don't know ANY atheists who believe in "fate," as you seem to be referring to without calling it that.
I cannot stand it when people mindlessly say, "If it was meant to happen, it will happen." That is just UTTER STUPIDITY because of course they will say it about ANYTHING that happens -- which, of course, means it is totally meaningless.
And the idea that we have no control but some god-thing or "fate" or "the universe" makes things happen regardless of anything we do? Seriously? I mean, this is what 5-year-olds believe ... not adults with working brains.
Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this thread seems to me to be at the level of fundamental-religious-belief stupidity. And that is not a good thing.
HOW ON EARTH are people (especially people who call themselves atheists) giving thumbs up to the idea that there is no "free will"? HOW ON EARTH are people giving thumbs up to the idea that "whatever will be, will be"?
Are you all delusional? I don't know ANY atheists who believe in "fate," as you seem to be referring to without calling it that.
I cannot stand it when people mindlessly say, "If it was meant to happen, it will happen." That is just UTTER STUPIDITY because of course they will say it about ANYTHING that happens -- which, of course, means it is totally meaningless.
And the idea that we have no control but some god-thing or "fate" or "the universe" makes things happen regardless of anything we do? Seriously? I mean, this is what 5-year-olds believe ... not adults with working brains.
Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but this thread seems to me to be at the level of fundamental-religious-belief stupidity. And that is not a good thing.
Believing in free will, or in y case not, is not dependent on not believing in deity.
Atheist can believe all sorts of things. From living system all the way up to a cosmic mind, and all points in-between. And even not.
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It’s just called “thinking.” 
