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You seek to define God as evil and darkness, while you say out of the other side of your mouth that you do not believe in the existence of God. Which is shadow boxing. Do you think of yourself as some shadow boxing champion ?
You are engaging in what you claim is imaginary, by your own words.
I was simply asking for a description of the concept "DARK stuff." Care to give it a try?
You seek to define God as evil and darkness, while you say out of the other side of your mouth that you do not believe in the existence of God. Which is shadow boxing. Do you think of yourself as some shadow boxing champion ?
You are engaging in what you claim is imaginary, by your own words.
Just a thought...
One can characterize figures as presented in the bible without necessarily believing in them. Just as we characterize other fictional people in books and film. Could we characterize Ebenezer Scrooge, for example? Yes, although he was only a fictional character.
I was simply asking for a description of the concept "DARK stuff." Care to give it a try?
Where do you wish to be led ? If you are seeking the extent of darkness, what will you do for light ? And how will you find your way out of total darkness ? The assumption of being a light unto yourself is dissipated.
One can characterize figures as presented in the bible without necessarily believing in them. Just as we characterize other fictional people in books and film. Could we characterize Ebenezer Scrooge, for example? Yes, although he was only a fictional character.
You don't have to believe in anything you don't want too.
In this world we must distinguish between fact and fiction. Proper leading and misleading's, the truth and a lie. What can be distinguished without a true vantage point to look too. Without that people are all over the place, regarding what is truth, having no consistency.
I know when I build things, I don't use a fictional tape measure, nor do I make dishonest measurements. And when the project is completed, all those accurate measurements tell the story, even though they are unseen.
Where do you wish to be led ? If you are seeking the extent of darkness, what will you do for light ? And how will you find your way out of total darkness ? The assumption of being a light unto yourself is dissipated.
When considering a concept like "DARK stuff," I can only consider and judge the information I am confronted with. This, for example:
Around 1173 a wealthy man gave away all of his possessions in an attempt to emulate Jesus. This began a movement known as the Waldensians, who took vows of poverty. By the next century this movement had grown large enough to induce the wrath of the Catholic church whom the Waldensians considered too rich and ostentatious to represent Jesus. The Waldensians were declared heretics. In 1209, under authority of the Pope, an army under the command of the Abbot of Citeaux, Arnaud Amalric, marched to the French town of Breziers, a known hotbed of Waldensian sentiment. Amalric promised the Bishop of Brizers that all good Catholics would be spared if they fled the town. Few towns people fled however. Instead they barricaded themselves in their churches.
Caesarius of Heisterbach wrote of the massacre:
"When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot “Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics.†The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His†(2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain."
2Tim.2:
[19] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
And so there the justification by the Christian church for the actions which were taken is built right into the belief system itself. All that is required is a reason and opportunity to take it to such an extreme conclusion.
By the sixteen century the Waldensians had become associated with the protestant reformation. In 1655 the Duke of Savoy prepared to exterminate all Waldensians once and for all. He ordered that his troops should be quartered in private homes in the heavily Waldensian Piedmont region. And then he ordered a general massacre.
Wikipedia
Waldensians
'Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die."
This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians; writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. The massacre prompted John Milton's famous poem on the Waldensians, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_M%C3%A9rindol
Compare the account above, an ACTUAL historical event, with the JESUIT Extreme Oath of Induction, as recorded as part of the official record by the U.S. Congress in 1913.
JESUIT Extreme Oath of Induction
as recorded in the Journals of the 62D Congress, 3d Session of the U.S.
(House Calendar No. 397. Report No. 1523)
Congressional Record---House, 15 Feb. 1913, pp3215-3216
I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyoly, in the pontification of Paul the III, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's vice regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical kings, princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran Church of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and the now pretended authority and Church's of England and Scotland, and the branches of same now established in Ireland and on the continent of America and elsewhere and all adherents in regard that they may be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or State, named Protestant or Liberal, or obedience to any of their laws, magistrates or officers. I do further declare that the doctrine of the Churches of England and Scotland of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and others of the name of Protestants or Masons to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same. I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of His Holiness's agents, in any place where I should be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or Masonic doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest; to keep secret and private all her agents counsels from time to time, as they intrust me, and not divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever, but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father, or any of this sacred order. I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ. That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition, and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infant's heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly I will secretly use the poisonous cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard, or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity or authority of the persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agents of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Father of the Society of Jesus. In confirmation of which I hereby dedicate my life, soul, and all corporal powers, and with the dagger which I now receive I will subscribe my name written in my blood in testimony thereof; and should I prove false or weaken in my determination may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the militia of the Pope cut off my hands and feet and my throat from ear to ear, my belly opened and sulphur burned therein with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth and my soul shall be tortured by demons in eternal hell forever. That I will in voting always vote for a Knight of Columbus in preference to a Protestant, especially a Mason, and that I will leave my party so to do; that if two Catholics are on the ticket I will satisfy myself which is the better supporter of Mother Church and vote accordingly. That I will not deal with or employ a Protestant if in my power to deal with or employ a Catholic. That I will place Catholic girls in Protestant families that a weekly report may be made of the inner movements of the heretics. That I will provide myself with arms and ammunition that I may be in readiness when the word is passed, or I am commanded to defend the church either as an individual or with the militia of the Pope. All of which I,_______________, do swear by the blessed Trinity and blessed sacrament which I am now to receive to perform and on part to keep this my oath. In testimony hereof, I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and witness the same further with my name written with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and seal in the face of this holy sacrament.
These sorts of historical events are NOT anomalies, in the same way that our current troubles with Muslim extremists are NOT anomalies. These are the results that living in a state of religious psychosis inevitably produce.
In other words, the sort of thing your average run-of-the-mill fundamentalist religious nut job might well do if left to their own devices. "DARK stuff" indeed.
I actually have interacted with a Satanist. I will never know if it was real or a prank, but I was up at 5:30a.m., very angrily posting on an app (Messaging feature) with someone that literally said, "I am a Satanist and I want to argue."
Either later that day or in a 48 hour window, I do forget, forgive me.. My car was stolen, and it was exposed that my "roommate" was a "squatter."
I find this being a coincidence hard to believe.
Satan is real
Hell is real
Jesus is real
Heaven is real.
I actually have interacted with a Satanist. I will never know if it was real or a prank, but I was up at 5:30a.m., very angrily posting on an app (Messaging feature) with someone that literally said, "I am a Satanist and I want to argue."
Either later that day or in a 48 hour window, I do forget, forgive me.. My car was stolen, and it was exposed that my "roommate" was a "squatter."
I find this being a coincidence hard to believe.
Satan is real
Hell is real
Jesus is real
Heaven is real.
"Satan is real
Hell is real
Jesus is real
Heaven is real."
When considering a concept like "DARK stuff," I can only consider and judge the information I am confronted with. This, for example:
Around 1173 a wealthy man gave away all of his possessions in an attempt to emulate Jesus. This began a movement known as the Waldensians, who took vows of poverty. By the next century this movement had grown large enough to induce the wrath of the Catholic church whom the Waldensians considered too rich and ostentatious to represent Jesus. The Waldensians were declared heretics. In 1209, under authority of the Pope, an army under the command of the Abbot of Citeaux, Arnaud Amalric, marched to the French town of Breziers, a known hotbed of Waldensian sentiment. Amalric promised the Bishop of Brizers that all good Catholics would be spared if they fled the town. Few towns people fled however. Instead they barricaded themselves in their churches.
Caesarius of Heisterbach wrote of the massacre:
"When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot “Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics.†The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius - Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His†(2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain."
2Tim.2:
[19] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
And so there the justification by the Christian church for the actions which were taken is built right into the belief system itself. All that is required is a reason and opportunity to take it to such an extreme conclusion.
By the sixteen century the Waldensians had become associated with the protestant reformation. In 1655 the Duke of Savoy prepared to exterminate all Waldensians once and for all. He ordered that his troops should be quartered in private homes in the heavily Waldensian Piedmont region. And then he ordered a general massacre.
Wikipedia
Waldensians
'Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die."
This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians; writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. The massacre prompted John Milton's famous poem on the Waldensians, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_M%C3%A9rindol
Compare the account above, an ACTUAL historical event, with the JESUIT Extreme Oath of Induction, as recorded as part of the official record by the U.S. Congress in 1913.
JESUIT Extreme Oath of Induction
as recorded in the Journals of the 62D Congress, 3d Session of the U.S.
(House Calendar No. 397. Report No. 1523)
Congressional Record---House, 15 Feb. 1913, pp3215-3216
I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyoly, in the pontification of Paul the III, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's vice regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical kings, princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran Church of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and the now pretended authority and Church's of England and Scotland, and the branches of same now established in Ireland and on the continent of America and elsewhere and all adherents in regard that they may be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or State, named Protestant or Liberal, or obedience to any of their laws, magistrates or officers. I do further declare that the doctrine of the Churches of England and Scotland of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and others of the name of Protestants or Masons to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same. I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of His Holiness's agents, in any place where I should be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or Masonic doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest; to keep secret and private all her agents counsels from time to time, as they intrust me, and not divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever, but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father, or any of this sacred order. I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ. That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centers of civilization of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition, and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infant's heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly I will secretly use the poisonous cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard, or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity or authority of the persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agents of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Father of the Society of Jesus. In confirmation of which I hereby dedicate my life, soul, and all corporal powers, and with the dagger which I now receive I will subscribe my name written in my blood in testimony thereof; and should I prove false or weaken in my determination may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the militia of the Pope cut off my hands and feet and my throat from ear to ear, my belly opened and sulphur burned therein with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth and my soul shall be tortured by demons in eternal hell forever. That I will in voting always vote for a Knight of Columbus in preference to a Protestant, especially a Mason, and that I will leave my party so to do; that if two Catholics are on the ticket I will satisfy myself which is the better supporter of Mother Church and vote accordingly. That I will not deal with or employ a Protestant if in my power to deal with or employ a Catholic. That I will place Catholic girls in Protestant families that a weekly report may be made of the inner movements of the heretics. That I will provide myself with arms and ammunition that I may be in readiness when the word is passed, or I am commanded to defend the church either as an individual or with the militia of the Pope. All of which I,_______________, do swear by the blessed Trinity and blessed sacrament which I am now to receive to perform and on part to keep this my oath. In testimony hereof, I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and witness the same further with my name written with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and seal in the face of this holy sacrament.
These sorts of historical events are NOT anomalies, in the same way that our current troubles with Muslim extremists are NOT anomalies. These are the results that living in a state of religious psychosis inevitably produce.
In other words, the sort of thing your average run-of-the-mill fundamentalist religious nut job might well do if left to their own devices. "DARK stuff" indeed.
Years ago, I was at a party down by the river. I was standing near the fire drinking my beer. A drunk biker reaches into the fire and pulls out a hefty stick that was on fire and whirls around and just misses my head and hits the guy standing next me. For no apparent reason. And others stepped in to cool him down.
Many years later I was having some beers with a close friend of that biker. And he started drilling down in me about a robbery at the liquor store next door to that bikers shop. Insinuating that I took part in that. The person who broke into the liquor store in the middle of the night was someone I hung around with who looked a lot like me. And the owner of the liquor store had walked in on them that night. And the guy I was having some beers with said the owner of the liquor store never forgets a face.
At that point I was starting to put things together. And another thing that incriminated me was the guy who robbed the store had stole some old money. And he gave me a story that he was in a pinch and got me to give him a current twenty for those old bills. In the meantime I needed my twenty dollars back, so my brother exchanged them for me. Then a friend of mine told me he had stolen that money, and I was very angry, and went to my brother to get the money back and he had already cashed them in at the bank.
So, the picture was becoming clear that I had been held guilty of that crime. And then the incident with the biker and many other things that happened to me over the years began to make sense. As many seek to carry out their own justice.
So, then the guy who was drilling down in me, says we are almost out of beer, we need to run to the liquor store. That same liquor store, and keeps saying the owner never forgets a face. So, when we get there he tells me to go inside with him and I didn't. While I was sitting in the truck talking to the other guy, I said, I got enough of my own baggage to carry, I don't need that. I didn't feel like I needed to prove my innocence on the matter to someone who falsely accused me.
Many of my other friends knew the truth of the matter. I had to endure a lot of bad stuff and people thinking evil of me because of all that. Not even knowing why.
I have to say that evening was very prophetic and cleared up a lot of things for me. The guy who framed me for what he had done, had already committed suicide years before.
So, do you think that you are an accurate judge of everything that goes on in the world and have all the facts ? How would you like it if something like that happened to you.
Years ago, I was at a party down by the river. I was standing near the fire drinking my beer. A drunk biker reaches into the fire and pulls out a hefty stick that was on fire and whirls around and just misses my head and hits the guy standing next me. For no apparent reason. And others stepped in to cool him down.
Many years later I was having some beers with a close friend of that biker. And he started drilling down in me about a robbery at the liquor store next door to that bikers shop. Insinuating that I took part in that. The person who broke into the liquor store in the middle of the night was someone I hung around with who looked a lot like me. And the owner of the liquor store had walked in on them that night. And the guy I was having some beers with said the owner of the liquor store never forgets a face.
At that point I was starting to put things together. And another thing that incriminated me was the guy who robbed the store had stole some old money. And he gave me a story that he was in a pinch and got me to give him a current twenty for those old bills. In the meantime I needed my twenty dollars back, so my brother exchanged them for me. Then a friend of mine told me he had stolen that money, and I was very angry, and went to my brother to get the money back and he had already cashed them in at the bank.
So, the picture was becoming clear that I had been held guilty of that crime. And then the incident with the biker and many other things that happened to me over the years began to make sense. As many seek to carry out their own justice.
So, then the guy who was drilling down in me, says we are almost out of beer, we need to run to the liquor store. That same liquor store, and keeps saying the owner never forgets a face. So, when we get there he tells me to go inside with him and I didn't. While I was sitting in the truck talking to the other guy, I said, I got enough of my own baggage to carry, I don't need that. I didn't feel like I needed to prove my innocence on the matter to someone who falsely accused me.
Many of my other friends knew the truth of the matter. I had to endure a lot of bad stuff and people thinking evil of me because of all that. Not even knowing why.
I have to say that evening was very prophetic and cleared up a lot of things for me. The guy who framed me for what he had done, had already committed suicide years before.
So, do you think that you are an accurate judge of everything that goes on in the world and have all the facts ? How would you like it if something like that happened to you.
I was raised Pentecostal. In other words an average run-of-the-mill fundamentalist religious nut job. However one particular day when I was thirteen I sat down and actually considered all of the various religious claims and stories I had been indoctrinated into believing from my earliest memory. And I realized that it was NONSENSE. All of it! I became an atheist by definition that day. I stopped believing in religious nonsense in EXACTLY the same way that I had stopped believing in Santa and the Easter bunny when I was about eight or nine. From that moment on I began to view the world through the eyes of my own reasoning and rational thought rather than through the eyes of the make believe and ancient superstitions of others. So... no, I have never been in a situation like the one you describe. I have never been arrested. I have attempted to avoid doing stupid things.
I'm 72 years old now, and it seems likely that I will continue to do my best to avoid doing stupid things by following a careful well reasoned path of my own and not allowing myself to be influenced by the stupidity of others.
I see no one else to blame but the person that is telling me they were "tricked". Its like smoking at this point. Anybody born after '87 should know better. By the year 1990, those born before should have realized.
That picture of uncle Sam saying
"We want you"
should be
"We blame you"
The greatest generation did a good job raising us.
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