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I HAVE called them out when I've seen it. Stop linking me together with them because of perceived silence and I'll not link you to bad groups that you haven't called out. That's not a reasonable argument.
Ever read the Lord of the Flies? It's a fascinating study in human nature. There are some even better real life examples. I'm not sure how one could suggest human being are not flawed and sinful.
I get it. You think more highly of human nature than what reality shows us. You can't comprehend the value of the gift because you don't think you need it.
"Lord of the Flies" is another great book worth reading for a number of reasons...
More than a few "lessons" we might pick up in that book too, about human nature and what often tends to cause us to act the way we do. Of course humans are flawed. Not perfect in any case. Some of us less perfect than others too of course. Whether any of us is "sinful" tends to be a matter of what we learn and how we feel about other books. In this case other holy books. Sin is not really a word in my personal vocabulary other than when brought up by others who have their notions about sin. What it means and who is sinful.
That's another big turn off about those people far as I'm concerned.
Regardless what books we read or what we learn, I like to leave the judgement as to sin alone. For others to judge as they insist of course, but to them if not you as well, I have to wonder who you think you are to judge anyone else as sinful? Gay people for example. Please, and if here too you also don't subscribe to that way of thinking, good, but clearly too many religious people do, and I say shame on them for imposing their beliefs and opinions on others in those sorts of hurtful and harmful ways.
Did a book report on it. No one is suggesting human beings are not flawed and sinful. Why are you even saying that? What is your purpose in diverting away from what I actually say? Do you do this in real life conversations?
Listen, and before reacting without thinking, please TRY to understand the words I am saying. The average person who is not a Christian but who lives an upright life, loves their family, contributes to society, cares about their fellow man--and I am describing some of the atheists who post on this very forum--likely knows that they are flawed but does not see themselves as a "sinner" in need of a savior. Again, why would they?
No, you don't get it, not whatsoever. That is so far off what I think and what I said in my post that it's clear you don't have an intention of trying to see anything from any point of view other than your own.
Oh well. I tried.
I am arguing human beings are not sinful, and although I know there are flawed atheists, there are a good many of us who are not. Certainly not sinful in any case. Many of us who are perfect and humble like that all at the same time. Seriously though...
With respect to all your efforts. Indeed you have tried, but always remember, "no good deed goes unpunished!"
Of course they do. They refuse to believe Jesus. what else can they do.
Objectively speaking, there is always a good deal else all of us can do...
For me right now, however, it's time to get on with other equally important matters outside this forum for me to attend to. Holidays are soon upon us, and to that end here's happy holidays to all! Let our better natures make this one a good one for all concerned.
Of course they do. They refuse to believe Jesus. what else can they do.
This is ridiculous and offensive language. "Refuse" to believe Jesus? That implies that someone knows that Jesus and what you believe about Jesus is real but simply CHOOSES not to "believe".
Your smarmy and off-putting way of expressing your disdain for others who do not believe as you do does nothing to help promote your beliefs. You know that, right?
What purpose do you have in posting here other than to insult people? Is that what your religion and beliefs teach you to do? Why do you think that anyone would want join your organization and act the way you do?
Here's a reasonably fair-minded discussion of a survey of non-Christians as to what factors make them resistant to Christianity.
You can disagree with these reasons but they exist and are highly problematic just the same. Even the author of this piece takes some issue with a couple of these objections, but -- if you're a Christian who wants to successfully share your faith, these objections should inform your approach nevertheless.
Unfortunately, a lot of these can only be fully addressed by the church itself cleaning house. Something Paul urged two millennia ago and apparently no one is interested to this day. https://medium.com/backyard-theology...h-da4307115c88
A 'new broom sweeps clean' so the old adage goes.
So, the ' old broom ' the corrupted church, does Not do the sweeping clean. - Matthew 7:21-23.
Judgement starts with the religious ' house ' of God - 1st Peter 4:17.
The 'new broom', so to speak, proves to be King Jesus at Matthew 25:31-33,37 at Jesus' coming Glory Time.
Notice what coming action Jesus will take at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
This is ridiculous and offensive language. "Refuse" to believe Jesus? That implies that someone knows that Jesus and what you believe about Jesus is real but simply CHOOSES not to "believe".
Your smarmy and off-putting way of expressing your disdain for others who do not believe as you do does nothing to help promote your beliefs. You know that, right?
What purpose do you have in posting here other than to insult people? Is that what your religion and beliefs teach you to do? Why do you think that anyone would want join your organization and act the way you do?
There are a number of people on this very forum that would refuse to simply look objectively at anything we say. To deny that is simply naive.
Seriously? Do you think human beings by default THINK they need a savior? Why would they think such a thing in the first place?
The general environment of fundamentalism is one in which utterly depraved and lost humans are provided with salvation. In such an environment, it's natural to assume that everyone not already absorbed into the group are also depraved and lost, miserable, and in great need.
Since they see themselves as rescued from ignorance of the true nature of reality (their own depravity, god's saving grace) it is also natural for them to assume that "the unsaved" are in the grip of "darkness" and "deception" and are headed to their doom. I then becomes incumbent on them to warn such people, to "wake them up".
A radio preacher of yesteryear was fond of a metaphor where you know a bridge down the road is out, so you naturally jump up and down, frantically waving your hands, and shouting STOP, STOP! to motorists obliviously heading into the breach. Kind of like that "YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!!!" scene in Trains, Planes and Automobiles, but without the humor.
That is how they see themselves, and to see themselves and outsiders otherwise is to reject the very basis of their belief-system, as well as their personal subjective experience of it.
As a former evangelical, I get all that, and it allows me to have some compassion around it. But one would not expect any other sort of person to consider such ministrations anything but impertinent and intrusive. Also, while it isn't really inherent, it is not uncommon to proselytize in a judgmental, supercilious, demeaning fashion. It happens far too often that the one preaching to you has very little humility or respect for other's privacy or freedom of association. You can't very well "mind your own business" when its god-mandated to MAKE it your business.
One of several reasons that it isn't that common for people to come out of such mindsets, is because to do so you have to accept that you have been rightly seen as an un-self-aware jerk. It certainly gave me pause to really understand how I was coming off. Thankfully my sect wasn't that big on door-to-door cold calling and that sort of thing, but I did participate in some interactions I now see as cringe-worthy.
Finally, there's the whole matter of being dismissive of the experience and reality of others -- of failing to LISTEN. I have literally never been approached by a believer with a genuine "friends first" approach that might slowly earn them the right to inquire after my personal life in any way. I have literally never seen an effort to understand my point of view or my reasoning about "spiritual" or existential matters, since it's pre-dismissed and pre-judged as simply deluded and wrong if it is not peppered with Bible "proof texts" to justify itself. That is the other problem of authoritarian religion: it cannot see any value in any understanding that is not Bible-based -- and in a way reasonably compatible with their particular dogma, as well.
Instead, I have been talked AT (not talked to or with) and dogma is then repeated ... well, doggedly. My older brother is that way; he's the llast True Believer left in our family, the others having all deconverted or died by now, and every opportunity he gets he talks AT me concerning our family's conversion story / narrative and his interpretation of it. Not only does he never ask me about my thoughts concerning it, but there's a strong over-smell to his whole monologue (which he doesn't realize is a monologue) that he's not interested in considering or even hearing any divergent assessments. So ... I accept that when I try to just connect to him as a brother I am going to have to wade through about 25% of our conversation consisting of worked-in hints about how I should return to the faith because of this detailed narrative that I've already rejected some 30 years ago now.
The general environment of fundamentalism is one in which utterly depraved and lost humans are provided with salvation. In such an environment, it's natural to assume that everyone not already absorbed into the group are also depraved and lost, miserable, and in great need.
Since they see themselves as rescued from ignorance of the true nature of reality (their own depravity, god's saving grace) it is also natural for them to assume that "the unsaved" are in the grip of "darkness" and "deception" and are headed to their doom. I then becomes incumbent on them to warn such people, to "wake them up".
A radio preacher of yesteryear was fond of a metaphor where you know a bridge down the road is out, so you naturally jump up and down, frantically waving your hands, and shouting STOP, STOP! to motorists obliviously heading into the breach. Kind of like that "YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!!!" scene in Trains, Planes and Automobiles, but without the humor.
That is how they see themselves, and to see themselves and outsiders otherwise is to reject the very basis of their belief-system, as well as their personal subjective experience of it.
As a former evangelical, I get all that, and it allows me to have some compassion around it. But one would not expect any other sort of person to consider such ministrations anything but impertinent and intrusive. Also, while it isn't really inherent, it is not uncommon to proselytize in a judgmental, supercilious, demeaning fashion. It happens far too often that the one preaching to you has very little humility or respect for other's privacy or freedom of association. You can't very well "mind your own business" when its god-mandated to MAKE it your business.
One of several reasons that it isn't that common for people to come out of such mindsets, is because to do so you have to accept that you have been rightly seen as an un-self-aware jerk. It certainly gave me pause to really understand how I was coming off. Thankfully my sect wasn't that big on door-to-door cold calling and that sort of thing, but I did participate in some interactions I now see as cringe-worthy.
Finally, there's the whole matter of being dismissive of the experience and reality of others -- of failing to LISTEN. I have literally never been approached by a believer with a genuine "friends first" approach that might slowly earn them the right to inquire after my personal life in any way. I have literally never seen an effort to understand my point of view or my reasoning about "spiritual" or existential matters, since it's pre-dismissed and pre-judged as simply deluded and wrong if it is not peppered with Bible "proof texts" to justify itself. That is the other problem of authoritarian religion: it cannot see any value in any understanding that is not Bible-based -- and in a way reasonably compatible with their particular dogma, as well.
Instead, I have been talked AT (not talked to or with) and dogma is then repeated ... well, doggedly. My older brother is that way; he's the llast True Believer left in our family, the others having all deconverted or died by now, and every opportunity he gets he talks AT me concerning our family's conversion story / narrative and his interpretation of it. Not only does he never ask me about my thoughts concerning it, but there's a strong over-smell to his whole monologue (which he doesn't realize is a monologue) that he's not interested in considering or even hearing any divergent assessments. So ... I accept that when I try to just connect to him as a brother I am going to have to wade through about 25% of our conversation consisting of worked-in hints about how I should return to the faith because of this detailed narrative that I've already rejected some 30 years ago now.
So it goes ...
So were you a dreaded "Fundamentalist", or an "Evangelical"? They aren't necessarily the same thing.
What you're describing is simply Biblical Christianity, as it's been taught and believed for 2000 years, going back to the apostles.
More often it seems he sees attacks were there aren't any. Mere disagreement or arguing for another point of view is not an attack or some kind of existential threat.
It doesn't probably help that his lot tend to see everything in terms of "spiritual warfare". The imagery of girding for battle in itself tends to make you see everything as a threat, much as to a carpenter, everything is a nail and requires a hammer.
In reality I don't have some sort of battle plan against believers or even the notion that I'm going to sway any of them, in some game-changing way at least.
There's a rule in online engagement that for every person who regularly posts, there are a LOT more lurkers, on the order of a hundred. Most people just don't participate, for various reasons. I play more to that audience -- or for the benefit of literalist Christians who might want a relatable metaphor, that "great cloud of witnesses". I would have been part of that invisible cloud, in the long-ago, had there been an Internet. I try to post points that I would have greatly appreciated having the benefit of back when I was trying to figure out the actual truth or falsity of various ideas that had not been doing a good job of predicting or explaining my lived experience. Religious and otherwise.
People like BF are but a means to an end really, and not a nefarious one, either. I don't think I'll change his mind, and I doubt he seriously thinks he'll change mine. But there are people who are open to change, and looking to have these ideas argued from different points of view so that they can draw their own conclusions. Most believers undermine their own arguments and self-own so readily that they are actually allies in proving my points. I welcome them to do their thing.
Onward christian soldiers, marching as to war...
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