Jesus Christ of the Gospels Never Existed. He's a Myth and I Can Prove It (Part 1). (prophecies, Islam)
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I'd like to point out something about the Christians. Many are saying, "You can't prove your case, Thrillobyte because it can't be proved Jesus was a myth no matter how much evidence you present." Well, wouldn't that work in reverse? If no amount of evidence can be presented to prove Jesus is a myth, then no amount of evidence can prove Jesus was real. So why are Christians presenting their evidence to prove he was real if they believe it cannot be proven he was a myth? Or do the Christians simply desire a one-way street--no amount of evidence can prove he's a myth but a minuscule amount of evidence proves he was real? Sounds pretty hypocritical of the Christians to me.
Don't forget the authentic letters of Paul in complete form don't show up until the Codex Sinaiticus sometime in the 4th century, almost 300 years after they were purportedly written. That was plenty of time to add and subtract from the texts by the church--and we know for a fact tampering of the texts was rampant through the first few hundred years of the early church when they were trying to settle on what dogmas they wanted for their new religion. Additionally, historians aren't sure Hebrews was written by Paul--they just attribute to him for lack of anyone better to attribute it to.
I would ask the readers to consider this question:
If the Christian god really wanted us to believe Jesus was his divine son sent into the world to die for our sins, why would he leave historical matters related to Jesus so messy, confused and in such controversy that hundreds of books are written pointing out the evidence the gospel Jesus is a myth and Christian apologists have to write hundreds of books defending Jesus?
Please ask yourselves that question.
Why have Billions found that it isn't "messy & confused"...that it is beyond you, notwithstanding?
Please ask yourself that question.
I'd like to point out something about the Christians. Many are saying, "You can't prove your case, Thrillobyte because it can't be proved Jesus was a myth no matter how much evidence you present."
Sorry thrill...but even non-Christians on this board are also telling you that you can't prove your case. What does that tell you?
Quote:
Well, wouldn't that work in reverse? If no amount of evidence can be presented to prove Jesus is a myth, then no amount of evidence can prove Jesus was real.
Not necessarily, but THAT'S what you don't seem to get.
Quote:
So why are Christians presenting their evidence to prove he was real if they believe it cannot be proven he was a myth?
Because their 'case' is that he's real; and NOT a myth.
Quote:
[Or do the Christians simply desire a one-way street--no amount of evidence can prove he's a myth but a minuscule amount of evidence proves he was real? Sounds pretty hypocritical of the Christians to me.
This is not about "no amount of evidence...." Just because *you* don't see the presentation as 'evidence' doesn't mean that Christians see it the same way.
Sorry thrill, but you're just too emotional about this to present it in any kind of 'legal' sense. You say things like, "If God was real He WOULD have left us a mountain of evidence..." yadda, yadda, yadda. Yet, you have NO IDEA WHAT God "would" have done. That's only speculation from you...
Sorry thrill...but even non-Christians on this board are also telling you that you can't prove your case. What does that tell you?
Not necessarily, but THAT'S what you don't seem to get.
Because their 'case' is that he's real; and NOT a myth.
This is not about "no amount of evidence...." Just because *you* don't see the presentation as 'evidence' doesn't mean that Christians see it the same way.
Sorry thrill, but you're just too emotional about this to present it in any kind of 'legal' sense. You say things like, "If God was real He WOULD have left us a mountain of evidence..." yadda, yadda, yadda. Yet, you have NO IDEA WHAT God "would" have done. That's only speculation from you...
...which is NOT "evidence."
Mink, are you up for a one-on-one on the issues, one by one?
Last edited by thrillobyte; 10-29-2022 at 07:22 PM..
I would ask the readers to consider this question:
If the Christian god really wanted us to believe Jesus was his divine son sent into the world to die for our sins, why would he leave historical matters related to Jesus so messy, confused and in such controversy that hundreds of books are written pointing out the evidence the gospel Jesus is a myth and Christian apologists have to write hundreds of books defending Jesus?
Please ask yourselves that question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
You have NO IDEA WHAT God "would" have done.
I'd like people to study Mink's response to my question. She's saying I don't know the mind of God. Fair enough. But ask yourselves:
Would God have set things up in a way that would be hurting the religion he sent his only son to die for?
Is God's religion Christianity growing?
No. It is shrinking.
Dramatically.
50 years ago 90% of the American population professed to be Christian. In 2020 that number dropped to 64%. Only 64% of Americans profess to be Christian today. A recent study by Pew found that at that rate of decline, only 46% of Americans--less than half the American population would be professing Jesus by 2070.
Can anyone really believe that whatever God is doing it's helping lead people to Jesus. Or is whatever God is doing actually chasing people away from Jesus?
"If the rate of switching continues to accelerate, as it has since the 1990s, the percent calling themselves Christians will drop to 35%."
So again I ask:
If the Christian god really wanted us to believe Jesus was his divine son sent into the world to die for our sins, would he leave historical matters related to Jesus so messy, confused and in such controversy that hundreds of books would be written pointing out the evidence the Jesus found in the gospels is a myth? Why does God have to rely on Christian apologists to write hundreds of books defending Jesus?
Does any of this strike your commonsense minds as being completely logical on God's part?
Or are people dropping out of Christianity in American because they are finally starting see that the the Jesus of the gospels simply never lived, because if he was alive today he would be doing something about so many people walking away from him.
Thank about the logic of my question. And the complete illogic of how God is choosing to protect his Church today.
I'd like people to study Mink's response to my question. She's saying I don't know the mind of God. Fair enough. But ask yourselves:
Would God have set things up in a way that would be hurting the religion he sent his only son to die for?
Is God's religion Christianity growing?
No. It is shrinking.
Dramatically.
50 years ago 90% of the American population professed to be Christian. In 2020 that number dropped to 64%. Only 64% of Americans profess to be Christian today. A recent study by Pew found that at that rate of decline, only 46% of Americans--less than half the American population would be professing Jesus by 2070.
Can anyone really believe that whatever God is doing it's helping lead people to Jesus. Or is whatever God is doing actually chasing people away from Jesus?
"If the rate of switching continues to accelerate, as it has since the 1990s, the percent calling themselves Christians will drop to 35%."
So again I ask:
If the Christian god really wanted us to believe Jesus was his divine son sent into the world to die for our sins, would he leave historical matters related to Jesus so messy, confused and in such controversy that hundreds of books would be written pointing out the evidence the Jesus found in the gospels is a myth? Why does God have to rely on Christian apologists to write hundreds of books defending Jesus?
Does any of this strike your commonsense minds as being completely logical on God's part?
Or are people dropping out of Christianity in American because they are finally starting see that the the Jesus of the gospels simply never lived, because if he was alive today he would be doing something about so many people walking away from him.
Thank about the logic of my question. And the complete illogic of how God is choosing to protect his Church today.
I know you do it to assuage your angst over the world being hope you'd prefer it isn't...but Christianity is GROWING in this world, not shrinking.
By just looking at the U.S. (less than 5% of the world population) you get bad info about how it is overall.
Here, again...educate yourself: https://www.kentuckytoday.com/baptis...le%20of%202022.
I'd like to point out something about the Christians. Many are saying, "You can't prove your case, Thrillobyte because it can't be proved Jesus was a myth no matter how much evidence you present." Well, wouldn't that work in reverse? If no amount of evidence can be presented to prove Jesus is a myth, then no amount of evidence can prove Jesus was real. So why are Christians presenting their evidence to prove he was real if they believe it cannot be proven he was a myth? Or do the Christians simply desire a one-way street--no amount of evidence can prove he's a myth but a minuscule amount of evidence proves he was real? Sounds pretty hypocritical of the Christians to me.
The basic problem IMO is the difference between the methodology and standards of historians, and that of scientists. All historians care about is the "least unlikely" explanation for which no contrary evidence currently can be found. This is fine when we are arguing about some nuanced aspect of a historical figure concerning which there are multiple independent sources, including both supporters and detractors. When it comes to Jesus, you have a perfect storm however: there is very little else but his own fan fiction to go by -- accounts that are clearly fabulist and not entirely self-consistent -- and you have a third of the planet at least culturally invested in the unexamined notion that these accounts are in any way factual. As a historian, your salary may directly or indirectly depend on people who assume some degree of truth to these accounts.
Science really can't say much about all this other than that it is impossible to raise the dead and walk on water, so many aspects of the Jesus mythos are embellishments of reality at best, perhaps well-intentioned campfire stories.
The question Thrill has chosen to take up is whether some part of all this is real, and the necessary if insufficient basis for Christianity is that Jesus existed in history, so he's trying to go after that. I would argue that we can't know this with any certainty based on the available evidence, and anyway it is irrelevant to the alleged claims of god on man today. If Jesus, The Miracle-Working God-Man, was, or was "based on" a singular, real, historical person, is irrelevant because THAT miracle-working Jesus simply did not exist and ALL evidence points away from it, given an understanding of what "evidence" actually entails.
As to the notion that this works in reverse -- that strikes me as "apples and oranges". If we can't disprove Historical Jesus then we can't prove him either, but that is a separate question from whether Christianity is some sort of evidence from the opposite direction, from THIS end of history. If we could point to Christians and say in some truly unique way, "behold, how they love one another" (and here I must simply say, LOL) then we could perhaps begin to argue backwards, showing how Christianity has elevated civilization, made life better for billions, how Christian theocracies are models of human rights and dignity, and how secular democracies are cesspools of human suffering. Then we might start to think, hm, there might be something to all this, and maybe this Jesus fellow even actually DID exist.
But alas, the track record of Christianity is checkered at best. It has built soaring cathedrals (with generations of commoner labor) and it has also given us the Inquisition. It has been generally opposed to scientific progress and knowledge (heliocentrism, Gallileo, you name it, right up to modern Young Earth Creationism). There is zero evidence that the marriage of church and state has improved the rule of law, human rights, or freedom of conscience. Quite the opposite.
That's not to deny that individual Christians and particular churches provide true belonging and refuge and support for people. It's just to suggest that good people will do good things, despite a fundamentally bad ideology.
I know you do it to assuage your angst over the world being hope you'd prefer it isn't...but Christianity is GROWING in this world, not shrinking.
By just looking at the U.S. (less than 5% of the world population) you get bad info about how it is overall.
Here, again...educate yourself: https://www.kentuckytoday.com/baptis...le%20of%202022.
Sorry thrill...but even non-Christians on this board are also telling you that you can't prove your case. What does that tell you?
Not necessarily, but THAT'S what you don't seem to get.
Because their 'case' is that he's real; and NOT a myth.
This is not about "no amount of evidence...." Just because *you* don't see the presentation as 'evidence' doesn't mean that Christians see it the same way.
Sorry thrill, but you're just too emotional about this to present it in any kind of 'legal' sense. You say things like, "If God was real He WOULD have left us a mountain of evidence..." yadda, yadda, yadda. Yet, you have NO IDEA WHAT God "would" have done. That's only speculation from you...
...which is NOT "evidence."
I'll address some of your concerns in an upcoming post, Mink.
Mink, are you up for a one-on-one on the issues, one by one?
I guess not.
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