Jesus Christ of the Gospels Never Existed. He's a Myth and I Can Prove It (Part 1). (sunday, prayers)
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How the Christians can't see this when they have it right under their noses from their own church leaders' mouths trumpeting the virtues of deceiving people is completely beyond me. But Mink...will find some way to whitewash their cunning and make it look like a virtue instead of a vice, you can absolutely bet on the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
Oh geez...
Have you actually read Chrysostom's Treatise? Probably not. And because you probably didn't, you,-- and the anti-Christian website you pulled this off of-- are completely misrepresenting what John C. was talking about.
Just to enlighten you...
Chrysostom had a friend named Basil. Chrysostom and Basil agreed to be ordained as priests. But when it came time for ordination, Chrysostom hid himself...pretty much abandoning Basil.
Basil was ordained. Chrysostom wasn't...at least, not then. Basil believed that Chrysostom betrayed him by lying to him. In this portion of the Treatise, Chrysostom tried to defend his deceit to his friend by trying to convince him that in this case (I'm paraphrasing) his deceit was 'good' because it was for Basil's benefit.
His words have NOTHING to do with trying to fool people into believing that Jesus was/wasn't real.
Do your homework, thrill.
LOLOL I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! What did I tell you, folks!
Mink, I am a gd'ed prophet of God. I must be a prophet of God. I prophesied exactly what you were going to do before you did it. I'm as good as Ezekiel and Zechariah FC'sS.
To answer your question, Mink, no I didn't read it. It's six volumes for God's sake. Who'd be crazy enough to read six long boring treatises just to confirm a quote. I doubt you read them as well. You probably just googled it and read the synopsis. But that's neither here nor there. Basil is believed to be a fictional character John is using as a prop to have a long boring philosophical conversation with.
"In the edition published by St. Vladimir Seminary Press by Graham Neville, it is stated some modern commentators regard the whole episode between Basil and John as fictitious. Basil is simply a literary figure who has no historical existence. This “work of fiction” gives St. John Chrysostom an opportunity to write about the priesthood."
But you're missing the bigger picture here, Mink as you usually do. The whole quote is a peek into John's mind about how he feels about using deceit to achieve a purpose. Drown it in "It's not what it seems" all you want but the statements I provided from other dishonest churchmen still remains and put together with those other quotes it shows clearly that churchmen were not above using lies and deceit to make their avatar Jesus look like the real thing. But I'm sure you'll go on denying it until Judgement Day.
Oh, this was good!
Last edited by thrillobyte; 10-31-2022 at 07:17 PM..
What about those of us who went from "belief" to "non belief".
Something changed OUR minds...
The idea that Thrill is going "Jesus is a total myth" and didn't exist at all really is not the issue. Sure, Jesus could have been some random mortal human. But the claim that he is the Son of God can be substantiated ONLY if he returns.
All this stuff about thousands of people seeing him after he allegedly rose from the dead is meaningless.
The idea that the apostles got martyred because they saw the risen Jesus and refused unbelief is not proof either. Many people die for a cause. They don't need to see zombies to die for their cause.
And ironically, you brought up all this stuff about Jesus and "meekness" and his "message" in another post. Perhaps Jesus message of "meekness" and non violence et al. resonated with the apostles and they were willing to die for that...just like he did.
In the end, every believer on this thread and every nonbeliever will die a natural death. And Jesus will not have returned. And the argument we have going on this thread will be perpetuated by the next generation of believers and skeptics. And thene they will all die and we will go through this again with the next generation.
It's a tradition going back 2000 years.
Ain't that the truth. Can't rep you, eddie. I can't rep anybody in here except the Christians. How's that for irony?
What about those of us who went from "belief" to "non belief".
Something changed OUR minds...
The idea that Thrill is going "Jesus is a total myth" and didn't exist at all really is not the issue. Sure, Jesus could have been some random mortal human. But the claim that he is the Son of God can be substantiated ONLY if he returns.
All this stuff about thousands of people seeing him after he allegedly rose from the dead is meaningless.
The idea that the apostles got martyred because they saw the risen Jesus and refused unbelief is not proof either. Many people die for a cause. They don't need to see zombies to die for their cause.
And ironically, you brought up all this stuff about Jesus and "meekness" and his "message" in another post. Perhaps Jesus message of "meekness" and non violence et al. resonated with the apostles and they were willing to die for that...just like he did.
In the end, every believer on this thread and every nonbeliever will die a natural death. And Jesus will not have returned. And the argument we have going on this thread will be perpetuated by the next generation of believers and skeptics. And thene they will all die and we will go through this again with the next generation.
It's a tradition going back 2000 years.
I am in the same boat as you.
The thousands of people they always cite? I'd like their names and addresses. Not some unknown person alive 2,000 years ago.
Years ago when I would get into these types of discussions with friends who were VERY religious, they'd tell me all about these things that they KNOW. So one day I printed out a map of that general area of the world. Except that with the exception of modern national boundaries, the map was blank. And so the next time they started telling me all the things they KNEW, I handed them the map and said point out Jerusalem. Rome. The Red Sea. Mount Sinai. They didn't really know much of anything other than old tales.
LOLOL I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! What did I tell you, folks!
Mink, I am a gd'ed prophet of God. I must be a prophet of God. I knew exactly what you were going to do before you even did it. I'm as good as Ezekiel or Zechariah FC'sS.
To answer your question, Mink, no I didn't read it. It's six volumes for God's sake.
Who'd be crazy enough to read six long boring treatises just to confirm a quote. I doubt you read them as well. You probably just googled it and read the synopsis. But that's neither here nor there. Basil is believed to be a fictional character John is using as a prop to have a long boring philosophical conversation with.
Wrong again.
Yes, I DID read it. The whole thing. In its entirety.
"In the edition published by St. Vladimir Seminary Press by Graham Neville, it is stated some modern commentators regard the whole episode between Basil and John as fictitious. Basil is simply a literary figure who has no historical existence. This “work of fiction” gives St. John Chrysostom an opportunity to write about the priesthood."
https://almoutran.com/2011/03/249/
How many is "some?" Two out of 100? Three out of 18? The word "some" isn't very impressive, especially if "some" of those "some" are non-believers.
Quote:
But you're missing the bigger picture here, Mink as you usually do. The whole quote is a peek into John's mind about how he feels about using deceit to achieve a purpose. Drown it in "It's not what it seems" all you want but the statements I provided from other dishonest churchmen still remains and put together with those other quotes it shows clearly that churchmen were not above using lies and deceit to make their avatar Jesus look like the real thing. But I'm sure you'll go on denying it until Judgement Day.
Oh, this was good!
Wrong again, thrill. And if you took the time to do your homework in the first place, like I did, you'd know that. And those statements you made from other churchmen have also been debunked, simply by doing a little research.
Sorry, thrill. But if you want to approach these questions and ideas like some lawyer in a courtroom, prepare yourself better.
Yes, I DID read it. The whole thing. In its entirety.
"In the edition published by St. Vladimir Seminary Press by Graham Neville, it is stated some modern commentators regard the whole episode between Basil and John as fictitious. Basil is simply a literary figure who has no historical existence. This “work of fiction” gives St. John Chrysostom an opportunity to write about the priesthood."
https://almoutran.com/2011/03/249/
How many is "some?" Two out of 100? Three out of 18? The word "some" isn't very impressive, especially if "some" of those "some" are non-believers.
Wrong again, thrill. And if you took the time to do your homework in the first place, like I did, you'd know that. And those statements you made from other churchmen have also been debunked, simply by doing a little research.
Sorry, thrill. But if you want to approach these questions and ideas like some lawyer in a courtroom, prepare yourself better.
Ahhhhh, Mink. You know, I think I enjoy my repartee's with you more than with anyone else in here. Once in a while you come through with something I know you're going to do and it is pure gold.
Okay, so 95 pages. I'll put it on my "to read before the Great White Throne Judgement" list.
Quote:
How many is "some?" Two out of 100? Three out of 18?
Who knows? Maybe 3 out of 18, maybe it's 18 out of 3, who knows? Is it even important?
But you know, Mink--even Derek admits there's a lack of secular historical evidence for Jesus. I'm sure you wouldn't admit that in a thousand years--we should live so long. But getting even one Christian to admit that is the equivalent of moving a cruise ship to the top of Mt Everest. Unbelievable that I got even that far.
This is a terrific post, mordent. I think you're the ONLY one in here who gets it.
Important points from your post:
If I can't prove the gospels Jesus was mythical, then Mink and Michael Way and EscMike and the rest of Jesus' devoted fan club cannot prove he was real, though Christians have been trying to do just that for centuries before Jesus mythicism even came around.
Take away the Bible, simply a collection of fan fiction, and a Christian has absolutely nothing historical to prove Jesus either as a historic man or the gospel Jesus. Sure, they trot out Tacitus and Suetonius and Pliny the Elder but these men NEVER mention "Jesus Christ" they only refer to a group of followers who call themselves "Christians" after some unknown unnamed individual. "Christian" means "followers of the Anointed One" and that could be any one of a hundred different people from the period, since Yeshua bar Joseph in Israel at that time was the Jewish equivalent of our John Smith.
Despite all the evidence pointing to the gospel of Jesus being a myth, roughly 1/3 of the planet call themselves Christians even though 90% of them have never read the Bible and couldn't quote you a single verse in the Bible if you offered them the Powerball winnings. "Christian" is just a cultural tag to them to separate themselves from the Islamists and Hindus, that's all.
The core of my contention is this: how do we know the gospel Jesus was a myth?
Simple, apart from the fact there isn't a single credible entry bearing his name in the entire historical record of the first century when people would have known him or at least mention some of these "fabulist" miracles he supposedly performed, to use your word,
Apart from the blank historical record Jesus left behind, it stands to reason that a Christian god who invested himself so heavily in setting up this elaborate plan of salvation from time immemorial to send his only son into the world to die for mankind would not sabotage his own plan so badly by leaving nothing behind to prove to the world that his son was a real person.
That is simple logic: a God does NOT shoot himself in the foot by setting up a plan for salvation so riddled with holes and flaws that it actually drives people away from Jesus rather than draws them to him.
And the best Gldn and others can do is say that Christianity is spreading in the world. Sure it is, among the dumb and uneducated and gullible in 3rd World countries. Once these countries get an education like in 1st World countries like North America and Europe then Christianity declines dramatically as we are witnessing here in the US--from 90% to a projected 35% within a span of a meager 100 years. At that rate of decline how long is it before Christianity is at effective 0? And this Jesus of theirs is doing absolutely nothing to stop it.
That's not a plan of salvation, that's a plan of annihilation.
You, again, as usual, make the false, disrespectful and insulting claim that Christianity is the Theology of the "dumb and uneducated and gullible".
Most of greatest minds to ever exist were Religious/Christian...and Christianity is growing the most where education is the best.
The lack of historical evidence is not the troubling thing for me, Derek when all is taken into consideration. Truthfully, knowing what I know, I'm not surprised in the least that there is no historical evidence for Jesus. What is really troubling to me about this entire thing is the Christian god's attitude to this whole affair. As I said, Yahweh went to all the trouble to lay out a plan of redemption that was so vast it would affect literally every human who ever lived and that's 100+ BILLION people.....so far. After waiting literally millions of years while humans evolved to a point they were ready to receive Jesus....Yahweh goes and recalls Jesus to heaven after his salvific work is complete....and doesn't leave a scrap of secular evidence behind to satisfy the non-religious that Jesus was a real person. I mean I have heard of humans sabotaging their own efforts to bring themselves to ruin but I would never have expected it of a god. Put another way Yahweh left behind only enough to satisfy the Christians. He never gave a moment's thought to how a non-Christian, which currently comprises 2/3's of the world population, would react to the scant evidence of Jesus that we find upon investigating him. Perhaps this is how Yahweh wanted it. Perhaps the Calvinists are right--Jesus came to save only a select few who could believe in the gospels, like yourself, and me, mordant, Learn Me, eddie gein, Harry and the rest of us atheists he consigned to the fires of hell. That's what it looks like to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
LOLOL I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! What did I tell you, folks!
Mink, I am a gd'ed prophet of God. I must be a prophet of God. I prophesied exactly what you were going to do before you did it. I'm as good as Ezekiel or Zechariah FC'sS.
To answer your question, Mink, no I didn't read it. It's six volumes for God's sake. Who'd be crazy enough to read six long boring treatises just to confirm a quote. I doubt you read them as well. You probably just googled it and read the synopsis. But that's neither here nor there. Basil is believed to be a fictional character John is using as a prop to have a long boring philosophical conversation with.
"In the edition published by St. Vladimir Seminary Press by Graham Neville, it is stated some modern commentators regard the whole episode between Basil and John as fictitious. Basil is simply a literary figure who has no historical existence. This “work of fiction” gives St. John Chrysostom an opportunity to write about the priesthood."
But you're missing the bigger picture here, Mink as you usually do. The whole quote is a peek into John's mind about how he feels about using deceit to achieve a purpose. Drown it in "It's not what it seems" all you want but the statements I provided from other dishonest churchmen still remains and put together with those other quotes it shows clearly that churchmen were not above using lies and deceit to make their avatar Jesus look like the real thing. But I'm sure you'll go on denying it until Judgement Day.
Oh, this was good!
Since you are so prophetic...it will probably be how you say it looks like to you.
So...maybe you can find a place that you can get some wailing & teeth gnashing lessons.
According to your prophecy, you are gonna need them
Matthew 13
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
What about those of us who went from "belief" to "non belief".
Something changed OUR minds...
Oh, believe me, I get that, too.
Quote:
The idea that Thrill is going "Jesus is a total myth" and didn't exist at all really is not the issue. Sure, Jesus could have been some random mortal human. But the claim that he is the Son of God can be substantiated ONLY if he returns.
Even if Jesus DID return today, there will still be those who wouldn't believe. Even as Jesus performed miracle after miracle, SOME still didn't (want to) believe.
Quote:
All this stuff about thousands of people seeing him after he allegedly rose from the dead is meaningless.
Not meaningless to the people who actually DID see him.
Quote:
The idea that the apostles got martyred because they saw the risen Jesus and refused unbelief is not proof either. Many people die for a cause. They don't need to see zombies to die for their cause.
The reason(s) they were martyred are a bit more complicated than that.
Quote:
And ironically, you brought up all this stuff about Jesus and "meekness" and his "message" in another post. Perhaps Jesus message of "meekness" and non violence et al. resonated with the apostles and they were willing to die for that...just like he did.
Perhaps.
Quote:
In the end, every believer on this thread and every nonbeliever will die a natural death. And Jesus will not have returned. And the argument we have going on this thread will be perpetuated by the next generation of believers and skeptics. And thene they will all die and we will go through this again with the next generation.
It's a tradition going back 2000 years.
Maybe. Then again, doesn't Jesus warn the apostles (and the rest of us) that we should be able to see the signs of the end times?
Aren't some of those things happening NOW?
I feel confident in saying that things will get much worse...
What about those of us who went from "belief" to "non belief".
Something changed OUR minds...
The idea that Thrill is going "Jesus is a total myth" and didn't exist at all really is not the issue. Sure, Jesus could have been some random mortal human. But the claim that he is the Son of God can be substantiated ONLY if he returns.
All this stuff about thousands of people seeing him after he allegedly rose from the dead is meaningless.
The idea that the apostles got martyred because they saw the risen Jesus and refused unbelief is not proof either. Many people die for a cause. They don't need to see zombies to die for their cause.
And ironically, you brought up all this stuff about Jesus and "meekness" and his "message" in another post. Perhaps Jesus message of "meekness" and non violence et al. resonated with the apostles and they were willing to die for that...just like he did.
In the end, every believer on this thread and every nonbeliever will die a natural death. And Jesus will not have returned. And the argument we have going on this thread will be perpetuated by the next generation of believers and skeptics. And thene they will all die and we will go through this again with the next generation.
It's a tradition going back 2000 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink57
Oh, believe me, I get that, too.
Even if Jesus DID return today, there will still be those who wouldn't believe. Even as Jesus performed miracle after miracle, SOME still didn't (want to) believe.
Not meaningless to the people who actually DID see him.
The reason(s) they were martyred are a bit more complicated than that.
Perhaps.
Maybe. Then again, doesn't Jesus warn the apostles (and the rest of us) that we should be able to see the signs of the end times?
Aren't some of those things happening NOW?
I feel confident in saying that things will get much worse...
Ahhhhh, Mink. You know, I think I enjoy my repartee's with you more than with anyone else in here. Once in a while you come through with something I know you're going to do and it is pure gold.
Awww shucks, thrill. Yer makin' me blush! Sparring with you (and a few others) here certainly keeps me on my toes!
Quote:
Okay, so 95 pages. I'll put it on my "to read before the Great White Throne Judgement" list.
LOL!
Quote:
Who knows? Maybe 3 out of 18, maybe it's 18 out of 3, who knows? Is it even important?
To some degree, yes. I mean, I know that people use these generalizations like "some" or "many" or even "most" to drive their point home. Used to drive me nuts when my late husband would say something like, "EVERYONE says..." only for me to press him on who "everyone" was. Turned out to be ONE other person. So admittedly, it's kind of a sore spot for me.
Quote:
But you know, Mink--even Derek admits there's a lack of secular historical evidence for Jesus. I'm sure you wouldn't admit that in a thousand years--we should live so long. But getting even one Christian to admit that is the equivalent of moving a cruise ship to the top of Mt Everest. Unbelievable that I got even that far.
Court cases have been won before with way less evidence that we have for Jesus. While I wouldn't say that we have "mountains" of evidence, I'd say that the evidence that we do have, is quite compelling for --dare I say it---"many."
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Sparring with you (and a few others) here certainly keeps me on my toes! 
So admittedly, it's kind of a sore spot for me. 
