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I look at it very differently. You have written multiple posts (multiple is an understatement) that are so long that few people here will read all of any one post, or all your posts. I don't think too many here would say that you don't appear to be 'obsessed' about this topic. And I'm using that word -- obsessed -- after giving it quite a bit of thought.
You seem to think that someone can predict in advance what will be a convincing argument or evidence to something. I don't believe that's true at all. In fact, it's clear that you believe that since you are not at all open-minded about the topic. You seem to think -- like one of our fundie posters -- that if you just keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over that suddenly someone will say, "Eureka!" You're wrong. I've been hearing the same arguments about christianity on both sides of the equation for decades now. And yes, I really do mean decades. And frankly, I don't hear anything new from either side. Do you think there's something that you have droned on about that's actually new? You just rehash, rehash, rehash, rehash your obsession.
Frankly, Scarlett, I don't care whether you think I'm an atheist or a theist. But just for the record, I'm an independent-thinking Theravada Buddhist. I see no conclusive evidence that there is or is not a god, so at best I ignore the slight possibility when I even think about it (other than on this board). I don't believe in prayer. I think it's hokum. I think our destiny is what we make of it, without any imaginary daddy up in the sky who is confused about his powers, abilities, and intents.
Ah, that's more like it! Critical or supportive, I'm just happy to finally get a detailed response out of you so that I have something to reply to.
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You have written multiple posts (multiple is an understatement) that are so long
Well at least I'm writing something, and contrary to what YOU might think of my posts droning on and on, lots of people rep me on this thread so I know someone is enjoying them. And being long on words is not an issue if I am presenting valuable info for people trying to make a decision about joining Christianity. You may or may not be aware that because no one can read every post a person makes, much of what I have to say gets missed so it must be repeated many times to give it a better chance of being read. So I'm not droning on and on for my health, I'm trying to make sure my important points are reaching my targeted audience. And contrary to what you might suspect you and the Christians around here are not my targeted audience. They are beyond hope. It's the lurkers on the fence that I'm trying to reach.
Obsessed? The problem is there is SO much evidence out there proving the Jesus of the gospels is a myth that I could make a thread once a day for a month and not cover it all. So I'm doing two things when I post: 1. I'm presenting new evidence to prove to the reasonable person (and that's the key phrase, "reasonable person") that Jesus is a myth and 2. I'm repeating a lot of things I had previously said so that those who missed them the first time around have a better chance of hearing what I have to say.
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In fact, it's clear that you believe that since you are not at all open-minded about the topic.
I'm not open-minded?????????? All I've done around here beside post evidence Jesus is a myth is beg, and I mean BEG people (including you) to give me some convincing evidence outside the Bible to prove Jesus was real. And you know, I'm sure the kinds of nonsense I get back from people like Thoreau and BF in response. Did I ever get even a smidgen of something from them besides insults and ridicule? You tell me.
Now your greatest sin around here, phet is that you don't care about any of this one way or the other. You're completely non-committed to any of it, which really makes me wonder why you even bother to get involved in this thread. But that's your privilege to kill time standing in the center of the road while cars whiz by. I did say once that I wouldn't defend myself to you because I consider it a waste of my time, but obviously sometimes I break my own rules--not to defend myself to you but to take an opportunity to reply to a disgruntled poster like yourself for the benefit of those who are not members but are paying attention to what gets said about me so they can see the accusation and read a response to it. My methods may not not make any sense to you but it is what it is.
”Jesus of the gospels is a myth” is no longer fringe, by the way. It is going mainstream in a BIG way with dozens of books available that give an incredible amount of evidence that ”Jesus the son of God” never existed as a living person. Here are just a few that readers here might find interesting as well as edifying if they wanted to pursue this topic further:
1. The Jesus Hoax: How St. Paul's Cabal Fooled the World for Two Thousand Years by John G Jackson
2. Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist? by John W. Loftus
3. Jesus Never Existed: An Introduction to the Ultimate Heresy by Kenneth Humphreys
4. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient Biblical studies)
5. Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All by David Fitzgerald
6. The Case Against The Case for Christ by Robert M Price (PhD in scriptural studies)
7. Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by Earl Doherty
8. The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by Dennis R MacDonald
9. Deciphering the Gospels Proves Jesus Never Existed by RG Price
10. Jesus: Mything in Action Volumes I, II and III by David Fitzgerald
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I just want to point out that this post of yours is reasonable, while the original poster's is not. The original poster's point of view in the first sentence of his title is fine...as a point of view. It's the "and I can prove it" part that makes his post inappropriate. We could take almost any position on almost any topic and state our point of view on it and find some 'experts' on the web to agree with us. And then we could also find 'experts' on the web to disagree with us. What the OP has said in his title is a point of view shared by some, not shared by others...and no one has PROVEN either position . And I say that as an atheist.
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I'd like to point out to readers that while phetaroi has been very vocal about me not having proved the gospel jesus is a myth, his responses never amount to more than 1, 2 or 3 sentence blurbs so it's impossible to have a meaningful dialogue with him. Just once I'd like to see him write 3 or 4 solid PARAGRAPHS like I just did to explain what it would take to convince him the gospels Jesus is a myth. There has to be SOME amount of evidence that would convince him if we're to believe his claim he's an atheist. Personally I think he's a closet theist.
It's ironic that you claim that phet's responses "never amount to more than 1, 2 or 3 sentence 'blurbs'", yet quote his post above, that's 6 sentences...
...which, so obviously disproves your point. As a Christian, you'd think I'd support your "never" against an atheist. But it ain't the truth.
I've only been on this board for less than a handful of years, but I've seen phet write some pretty insightful posts. And yes, they've amounted to MORE than 1,2 or 3 sentences. And as long as SOME of his posts are more than a few sentences, you can't say "never." To continue to use those generalities only causes you to lose any credibility you might have had.
While I don't suspect that phet is a 'closet theist', I DO suspect that you're more of a believer (albeit, one who is angry at the God you claim not to believe in) than you claim to be.
I agree with phet and some others, thrill. After hundreds of pages of this thread, you still haven't *proven* anything.
Ah, that's more like it! Critical or supportive, I'm just happy to finally get a detailed response out of you so that I have something to reply to.
Well at least I'm writing something, and contrary to what YOU might think of my posts droning on and on, lots of people rep me on this thread so I know someone is enjoying them. And being long on words is not an issue if I am presenting valuable info for people trying to make a decision about joining Christianity. You may or may not be aware that because no one can read every post a person makes, much of what I have to say gets missed so it must be repeated many times to give it a better chance of being read. So I'm not droning on and on for my health, I'm trying to make sure my important points are reaching my targeted audience. And contrary to what you might suspect you and the Christians around here are not my targeted audience. They are beyond hope. It's the lurkers on the fence that I'm trying to reach.
If *I* was a lurker, and on the fence about joining Christianity, I wouldn't be depending on posts like yours to make my decision. If ANYTHING, I'd be looking at your posts while thinking, "Is this guy for REAL? Doesn't he check is own *facts* to see if what he's saying is true?"
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Obsessed? The problem is there is SO much evidence out there proving the Jesus of the gospels is a myth that I could make a thread once a day for a month and not cover it all. So I'm doing two things when I post: 1. I'm presenting new evidence to prove to the reasonable person (and that's the key phrase, "reasonable person") that Jesus is a myth and 2. I'm repeating a lot of things I had previously said so that those who missed them the first time around have a better chance of hearing what I have to say.
No, there isn't evidence to *prove* that Jesus of the Gospels is a myth.
And no...you're not presenting "new evidence."
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I'm not open-minded?????????? All I've done around here beside post evidence Jesus is a myth is beg, and I mean BEG people (including you) to give me some convincing evidence outside the Bible to prove Jesus was real. And you know, I'm sure the kinds of nonsense I get back from people like Thoreau and BF in response. Did I ever get even a smidgen of something from them besides insults and ridicule? You tell me.
There IS evidence outside the bible. You just don't want to see it as such. Whether or not it convinces you is a different matter.
Plenty of people have had personal religious experiences. It doesn't automatically invalidate them because they were personal, nor does it invalidate them because they were "religious."
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Now your greatest sin around here, phet is that you don't care about any of this one way or the other. You're completely non-committed to any of it, which really makes me wonder why you even bother to get involved in this thread. But that's your privilege to kill time standing in the center of the road while cars whiz by. I did say once that I wouldn't defend myself to you because I consider it a waste of my time, but obviously sometimes I break my own rules--not to defend myself to you but to take an opportunity to reply to a disgruntled poster like yourself for the benefit of those who are not members but are paying attention to what gets said about me so they can see the accusation and read a response to it. My methods may not not make any sense to you but it is what it is.
LOL! You're referring to phet as a "disgruntled poster" while *YOU'RE* the one constantly making anti-Christian threads?
You made a statement in a post upthread : “ if I am presenting valuable info for people trying to make a decision about joining Christianity. ”
Your sense is one “joins” Christianity like it’s a club. And I agree that “organized “ religion that uses Christianity can serve as a club type experience sometimes. But what you miss is there is also those whose proof of Jesus or of God is through direct experience, not through organized religion or the “joining” of anything.
I know that drives you crazy as there is no proof of that. But there is no proof of the phenomenon of “love” either, yet most of us know without scientific proof that we’ve directly experienced love and it’s effect on our lives. Are you willing to say there is no such thing as love because there’s no proof when you know the profound effect it’s direct experience has?
Well, That’s the closest I can come up with to show you there is also the direct experiencing of God.
Whatever the Jesus phenomena and experience is — it is real for millions of humans and can act as a conduit or portal to the experience of God outside of organized religion.
You constantly relate to God as a gender and call God a “he” which comes from the Bible. But to actually experience God is outside the mind and outside human qualities.
Instead of obsessing with the proof of Jesus, why can’t you just let people evolve/mature spiritually in their own way, and just because you’ve never had a direct experience of God allow that perhaps others have…...
Last edited by mountainrose; 12-09-2022 at 07:17 AM..
”Jesus of the gospels is a myth” is no longer fringe, by the way. It is going mainstream in a BIG way with dozens of books available that give an incredible amount of evidence that ”Jesus the son of God” never existed as a living person. Here are just a few that readers here might find interesting as well as edifying if they wanted to pursue this topic further:
1. The Jesus Hoax: How St. Paul's Cabal Fooled the World for Two Thousand Years by John G Jackson
2. Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist? by John W. Loftus
3. Jesus Never Existed: An Introduction to the Ultimate Heresy by Kenneth Humphreys
4. On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient Biblical studies)
5. Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All by David Fitzgerald
6. The Case Against The Case for Christ by Robert M Price (PhD in scriptural studies)
7. Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus by Earl Doherty
8. The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by Dennis R MacDonald
9. Deciphering the Gospels Proves Jesus Never Existed by RG Price
10. Jesus: Mything in Action Volumes I, II and III by David Fitzgerald
Yourself and all of the authors you mentioned will at some point will go the way as the rest of the human race according to Genesis 3 (physical death) - and then all of you will be able to tell Jesus Himself that He is a myth.
It's ironic that you claim that phet's responses "never amount to more than 1, 2 or 3 sentence 'blurbs'", yet quote his post above, that's 6 sentences...
...which, so obviously disproves your point. As a Christian, you'd think I'd support your "never" against an atheist. But it ain't the truth.
I've only been on this board for less than a handful of years, but I've seen phet write some pretty insightful posts. And yes, they've amounted to MORE than 1,2 or 3 sentences. And as long as SOME of his posts are more than a few sentences, you can't say "never." To continue to use those generalities only causes you to lose any credibility you might have had.
While I don't suspect that phet is a 'closet theist', I DO suspect that you're more of a believer (albeit, one who is angry at the God you claim not to believe in) than you claim to be.
I agree with phet and some others, thrill. After hundreds of pages of this thread, you still haven't *proven* anything.
Mink, it wasn't until I pointed that out to him that he replied with those six sentences. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?
Thoreau and Baptist are the same way. They don't like to put any work or thought into their posts, at least on my threads. They just hit-and-run with some silly insult and then take off. It's impossible to engage them in anything, let alone a meaningful conversation about their objections to what I say. So I don't even try anymore. You're really good about engaging and I appreciate that.
Mink, it wasn't until I pointed that out to him that he replied with those six sentences. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?
Thoreau and Baptist are the same way. They don't like to put any work or thought into their posts, at least on my threads. They just hit-and-run with some silly insult and then take off. It's impossible to engage them in anything, let alone a meaningful conversation about their objections to what I say. So I don't even try anymore. You're really good about engaging and I appreciate that.
Honestly? Why SHOULD we put any amount of real work into our posts? You're an angry atheist that has proven time and again that you refuse to have any amount of objectivity when it comes to anything that goes against your preconceived notions.
I'm not going to spend any amount of time trying to cast pearls before swine, simply put. Here we are 110 pages in and you are STILL trying to do a victory lap even though you have completely failed to deliver what was promised in any way, shape, or form.
Honestly? Why SHOULD we put any amount of real work into our posts? You're an angry atheist that has proven time and again that you refuse to have any amount of objectivity when it comes to anything that goes against your preconceived notions.
I'm not going to spend any amount of time trying to cast pearls before swine, simply put. Here we are 110 pages in and you are STILL trying to do a victory lap even though you have completely failed to deliver what was promised in any way, shape, or form.
See what I mean, Mink? Why bother?
Hey, BF, take a look at the books in #1092. Maybe you'll get some answers there. Just admit it. You're not interested in engaging with anyone on the topic of Jesus mythicism.
If *I* was a lurker, and on the fence about joining Christianity, I wouldn't be depending on posts like yours to make my decision. If ANYTHING, I'd be looking at your posts while thinking, "Is this guy for REAL? Doesn't he check is own *facts* to see if what he's saying is true?"
Too many of his *facts* are valid to simply imply they are not true. Yes, there are also a few that are dubious or wrong, but that is an advantage of a forum like this, you are free to provide evidence refuting another person's position.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
No, there isn't evidence to *prove* that Jesus of the Gospels is a myth.
There is plenty of evidence that indicates much (if not all) of the gospel Jesus story is myth.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
There IS evidence outside the bible. You just don't want to see it as such. Whether or not it convinces you is a different matter.
No there is not. The best you have is Tacitus, but then you need to explain the centuries of silence about this alleged mention. And as we do not know his source IF it is a genuine report, that makes it useless as evidence, because that means it could be based on the allegorical accounts in the gospels themselves.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
Plenty of people have had personal religious experiences. It doesn't automatically invalidate them because they were personal, nor does it invalidate them because they were "religious."
No, but experience on it's own can not be used when we can not verify them. Two examples, one of our citizens experiences speaking with God directly, and another experiences 2 meter tall cockroach-men. should we trust the experiences of these two men?
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Critical or supportive, I'm just happy to finally get a detailed response out of you so that I have something to reply to. 
All I've done around here beside post evidence Jesus is a myth is beg, and I mean BEG people (including you) to give me some convincing evidence outside the Bible to prove Jesus was real. And you know, I'm sure the kinds of nonsense I get back from people like Thoreau and BF in response. Did I ever get even a smidgen of something from them besides insults and ridicule? You tell me. 
