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You don't have to be sorry because I'm not mixing up art and sexism. The opposite in fact.
It's amazing how many strawman arguments you have been able to fit into one short post here ^^^ and frankly I can't be bothered to take any of them on just for you to come back at me with another armful of new strawman arguments.
So I'm going to ignore them all and just say what I want to say instead related to this topic in another post unrelated to yours.
It seems too many strawmen are walking around here that are visible only to some of us. They never fail to appear when there is no good response to make.
I think Learnme's question is more about how should he interact with other women while in a relationship. The fact that he specifically mentions beautiful women does sound like he is objectifying them. What if Raquel Welch returned the same gaze to Learnme? How he handled that would be more interesting to me at the beginning of a relationship than him happening to notice a beautiful woman.
I think Learnme's question is more about how should he interact with other women while in a relationship. The fact that he specifically mentions beautiful women does sound like he is objectifying them. What if Raquel Welch returned the same gaze to Learnme? How he handled that would be more interesting to me at the beginning of a relationship than him happening to notice a beautiful woman.
I think Learnme's question is more about how should he interact with other women while in a relationship. The fact that he specifically mentions beautiful women does sound like he is objectifying them. What if Raquel Welch returned the same gaze to Learnme? How he handled that would be more interesting to me at the beginning of a relationship than him happening to notice a beautiful woman.
Thank you for your interest and ongoing effort to clarify what seems in need of clarification. I also feel the topic was mangled up a bit. In ways I didn't anticipate earlier on, but of course we all have our different perspectives about such things depending on a variety of different factors and influences.
More specifically, with regard to my question, I thought to go back where this particular discussion began, and you tell me. Does my comment #227 read well enough to understand where I'm coming from? At least to start? The comments following that one veered a bit from one thing or another, but I'd say that comment #227 still reflects my thoughts or question fairly well.
If mention of beautiful women is to objectify women, then guilty as charged, but again, I don't feel appreciation for how a beautiful woman looks is to objectify them. Or if it is, I'd suggest we consider what objectify actually means. If I admire a beautiful car, or painting, or nature scene, am I objectifying these things? If yes, then again guilty as charged, but really? What can we consider from an aesthetic standpoint that is not an object? What is the difference between objectifying something or someone as compared to appreciating the beauty of something or someone? Help me out here.
As for the beautiful woman vs the ugly one, again guilty as charged. Guilty if the crime is not to share the same sort of appreciation or feeling(s) regardless how something or someone looks. Before cb jumps in with her typical decidedly one-track point of view and narrow focus, I suppose I must also emphasize the difference between aesthetics and all the other characteristics that make a man or woman attractive (or not). Intelligence. Kindness. Talent. Just to name a few. I am a great appreciator and admirer of men and women who have "the whole package" going for them.
Nothing more really. Nothing less.
Finally, to the question about Raquel Welch turning her "gaze" toward me, I'm not sure about the "gaze," but I have dealt with what seemed an attraction toward me on the part of a beautiful woman or two after I got married. I traveled quite a bit on business and my work involved a good amount of socializing with men and women. I also worked in environments that included lots of women. In my last job before retiring, most of the women were younger than me and many were plenty good looking. How did I handle advances? I simply didn't let them go anywhere like I would have before I was in a relationship with my wife. I'm pretty sure this is what all men do once they are married and committed to the marriage. No different than what women do I suppose. Otherwise, man or women steps on that land mine that will no doubt blow up the marriage one way or another. Again, after just about 36 years, I think I've proven myself adept at avoiding those land mines. In large part by staying as clear away from them as possible. Romantically speaking.
If one is determined not to understand what objectification is, that is simply willful ignorance. No different from those why deny racism exists even when they have never experienced it due to the privilege of being white.
The odd and sick aspect is that some women and some Black people can also exhibit the same denial of sexism and racism, such as Phyllis Schaffly and Clarence Thomas.
Quote:
Sexual objectification occurs when a woman's body, body parts, or sexual functions are isolated from her whole and complex being and treated as objects simply to be looked at, coveted, or touched
If one is determined not to understand what objectification is, that is simply willful ignorance. No different from those why deny racism exists even when they have never experienced it due to the privilege of being white.
The odd and sick aspect is that some women and some Black people can also exhibit the same denial of sexism and racism, such as Phyllis Schaffly and Clarence Thomas.
Only thing I'm really determined to do is ask the questions I do, for purposes of clarification and to make the distinctions I do. You are determined to ignore all the comments I have devoted to that end, and while I have no confusion as to what YOU want to forever finger as objectification, I stand by my comments and questions as best I've been able to explain myself.
Too bad somewhat sad you seem oblivious to what anyone is explaining besides what you want to keep repeating, but you are very simply way off base. Only you can make such a direct bee-line connection between the appreciation of beauty and something like racism.
Only thing I'm really determined to do is ask the questions I do, for purposes of clarification and to make the distinctions I do. You are determined to ignore all the comments I have devoted to that end, and while I have no confusion as to what YOU want to forever finger as objectification, I stand by my comments and questions as best I've been able to explain myself.
Too bad somewhat sad you seem oblivious to what anyone is explaining besides what you want to keep repeating, but you are very simply way off base. Only you can make such a direct bee-line connection between the appreciation of beauty and something like racism.
I'll bet you're a lot of fun at parties...
Actually our parties were famous in our crowd. People hoped for invitations. I taught my friends, many of them non-drinkers, how to do proper tequila shots. So yeah, i was a lot of fun at parties.
You still refuse to get what objectification means and obfuscate it with appreciation of beauty. That is some hard resistance.
Racism and sexism are exactly the same, exploitation of the body.
Actually our parties were famous in our crowd. People hoped for invitations. I taught my friends, many of them non-drinkers, how to do proper tequila shots. So yeah, i was a lot of fun at parties.
You still refuse to get what objectification means and obfuscate it with appreciation of beauty. That is some hard resistance.
Racism and sexism are exactly the same, exploitation of the body.
Perhaps...
I'm tempted to exclusively latch onto how you taught non-drinkers to drink tequila shots, because you know alcoholism is a serious problem. Right? You just don't get that. Non-drinkers don't need someone enticing them to drink alcohol, let alone hard alcohol, and don't you know how many people die of alcohol poisoning every year? I hope there weren't young people at your parties. I doubt it, but if there were, what sort of example does this sort of deviant activity on your part set for younger people? No wonder you say "people hoped for invitations." Alcohol is an addictive drug, and I guess you refuse to get what addiction means and obfuscate such a thing with being the queen at the party. Shameful. No different from how racism and sexism is shameful. There.
I'm tempted to exclusively latch onto how you taught non-drinkers to drink tequila shots, because you know alcoholism is a serious problem. Right? You just don't get that. Non-drinkers don't need someone enticing them to drink alcohol, let alone hard alcohol, and don't you know how many people die of alcohol poisoning every year? I hope there weren't young people at your parties. I doubt it, but if there were, what sort of example does this sort of deviant activity on your part set for younger people? No wonder you say "people hoped for invitations." Alcohol is an addictive drug, and I guess you refuse to get what addiction means and obfuscate such a thing with being the queen at the party. Shameful. No different from how racism and sexism is shameful. There.
Nice try. for someone who seems to not understand the difference between leering and appreciation of beauty.
Thank you for your interest and ongoing effort to clarify what seems in need of clarification. I also feel the topic was mangled up a bit. In ways I didn't anticipate earlier on, but of course we all have our different perspectives about such things depending on a variety of different factors and influences.
More specifically, with regard to my question, I thought to go back where this particular discussion began, and you tell me. Does my comment #227 read well enough to understand where I'm coming from? At least to start? The comments following that one veered a bit from one thing or another, but I'd say that comment #227 still reflects my thoughts or question fairly well.
If mention of beautiful women is to objectify women, then guilty as charged, but again, I don't feel appreciation for how a beautiful woman looks is to objectify them. Or if it is, I'd suggest we consider what objectify actually means. If I admire a beautiful car, or painting, or nature scene, am I objectifying these things? If yes, then again guilty as charged, but really? What can we consider from an aesthetic standpoint that is not an object? What is the difference between objectifying something or someone as compared to appreciating the beauty of something or someone? Help me out here.
As for the beautiful woman vs the ugly one, again guilty as charged. Guilty if the crime is not to share the same sort of appreciation or feeling(s) regardless how something or someone looks. Before cb jumps in with her typical decidedly one-track point of view and narrow focus, I suppose I must also emphasize the difference between aesthetics and all the other characteristics that make a man or woman attractive (or not). Intelligence. Kindness. Talent. Just to name a few. I am a great appreciator and admirer of men and women who have "the whole package" going for them.
Nothing more really. Nothing less.
Finally, to the question about Raquel Welch turning her "gaze" toward me, I'm not sure about the "gaze," but I have dealt with what seemed an attraction toward me on the part of a beautiful woman or two after I got married. I traveled quite a bit on business and my work involved a good amount of socializing with men and women. I also worked in environments that included lots of women. In my last job before retiring, most of the women were younger than me and many were plenty good looking. How did I handle advances? I simply didn't let them go anywhere like I would have before I was in a relationship with my wife. I'm pretty sure this is what all men do once they are married and committed to the marriage. No different than what women do I suppose. Otherwise, man or women steps on that land mine that will no doubt blow up the marriage one way or another. Again, after just about 36 years, I think I've proven myself adept at avoiding those land mines. In large part by staying as clear away from them as possible. Romantically speaking.
The End.
I would say, yes, post #227 is pretty clear where you are coming from. Learnme, I appreciate your long, detailed responses.
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