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Your resistance to believe in the claims of the Bible doesn't change the fact that the Bible was not written as fiction.
The Book of Mormon was written in part as an allegedly historical account of a lost tribe of Israel and its descendants in North America. The LDS church has an apologist / pseudoscience "institute" trying to document / substantiate it as history. Yet I suspect you would not therefore regard that as evidence that this book DOES describe historic events.
We have a guy here who quotes the Urantia Book at every opportunity. Part IV of that book, "The Life and Teachings of Jesus", expands on the gospels with claimed historical accounts. It's written as history. Yet somehow I don't think you believe it remotely describes historical events.
So I'm sure you can now understand why that the Bible "presents as history" is not impressive to many of us. I could write an account of any old thing, claim it is historical accurate, and that doesn't make it history.
I mean, it's real enough that I could pick one up and throw it at someone. Makes for a good paperweight.
But I guess the question you're asking is, "What convinced you that snakes don't talk?"
The fact that snakes don't talk, I guess is the answer to that? Or, what convinced me that you can't be born of a virgin? The fact that, that's not how it works?
The Bible is a collection of ancient, assorted mythological fiction. It's fine for what it is, if understanding it in that context. May even be insightful in some cases, if you want to view it that way. But the actual world/universe, does not work like that. I've found that very obvious since I was a child.
Whole lot of things, from science to logic to observation, to all of it. Start with the existence of all the thousands of other religions believed across the planet. What convinced you that they're not real?
What does that even mean? Neither. We evolved from earlier forms of animals, via the process of natural selection. Biological life seeks survival and adaptation and continuation, etc. We are uniquely highly intelligent, self-aware great apes.
I don't doubt that people experience things. It's not about them being liars- it's about them being confused/incorrect about what it is they experienced.
In terms of what? Am I afraid that the little whiny brat is going to punish me for something? Bring it on.
Any actual God would behave nothing like the Christian God. I am zero percent worried about any of that total nonsense being real. And in the remote chance that it is, I'd go to his fire pit in protest. The last place I'd ever want to spend a million years is in Heaven with the self-righteous Christians.
It's an interesting concept that only Christians go to Heaven, and they will then "share" the place together.
Only a very low percentage of humanity ever get there, if you believe the Born Again Christian viewpoint. (the "narrow gate")
Whereas Hell, if an eternal hell does exist, each individual is isolated from each other, as the horrific Hell punishment is meted out for an eternity.
That would be the vast bulk of the 117 billion people that ever existed on earth all frying for eternity, if you believe that.
I suppose it would be cold comfort, or should I say hot comfort, knowing that nearly everyone else is there too- even if you can only smell the burning sulfur and hear their deafening screams...
I read the rest of your comment, but I'm only quoting the above part, because it's always a little sad to see when people become "disenchanted" with what goes on in the forum...
I suppose it can all be considered a debate of sorts, but I'm an atheist, and I simply enjoy "comparing notes" with others who think and believe differently than I do. Who basically go through life much as I do yet come to believe things that I don't. Too bad the "comparing of notes" along those lines is an unpleasant experience for people like you. I wish I could find a way to participate and share my thoughts to, as an atheist, without causing others to feel negatively about our differences of opinion or ways of thinking.
On the other hand, I've often felt and commented that this forum is pretty much nothing but a way to waste time, and if not pleasurable for anyone in any way, why bother? "Fruitless" to be sure, because as I have also noted many times in this forum, no one changes their mind about anything of consequence to them as a result of any comments posted in this thread. Pointless if the goal is to change anyone's mind about anything like this. True, but I'm just not sure that exchanging thoughts and opinions in this forum need come at the expense of concentrating on love as well.
Finally just to ask what is it about 10-31-23 that makes that your end date? Why even one more day?
Sorry for the delayed response LearnMe, I been very busy being a very normal human being these past few weeks (rolling my eyes lol). Anyway my dear, thank you for your kind words and wish you well in your life! I'm so sorry for the misunderstanding of me because I am such a freak of Nature and so unique I fear people will never understand me. At any rate my love, let me try to clear up some confusion you may have about me if I may?
I absolutely love people and Comparing notes with them even if they completely disagree with me, I believe it is important to have contact with people from all spectrums of life since diversity is what helps us to spiritually mature and be able to think outside the box when trying to figure out the higher philosophical meanings of life. What really harms me though is when fundamentalist Christians use their religion to condemn me to hell, try to invalidate me as a person because I don't think the way that they do, abuse forum rules by trying to kick me out of this website which thankfully the moderators were kind enough to keep me here. I can't have that kind of hate around me it's not good for my health. As a Christian, Wiccan-Shaman-Witch I deal with supernatural forces on a daily basis that involves life and death situations with my contacts, and I can't have any doubts about myself from fundamentalist extremist who try to gas light me with their rhetoric views of what they believe God is. So comparing notes is a good thing, but people that want to throw me into their imaginary lake of fire is a bad thing lol. Sorry I can't be around people like that.
Like I said I am a freak of Nature, people will never understand me. I died twice, talked to dearly departed people and things that were never human at all. I am a walking contradiction, I mean really! How many Christian- Wiccan-Shaman-Witches have you met? My crystal ball seems to suggest that I'm the first one you met in your life, but it gets much more weirder my love! I am very Atheist friendly and belonged to several Atheist Humanist groups one of which was called critical thinkers society patterned after Socrates.
It is because of Atheist help from the wonderful country of Canada that I became a legally fully ordained priestess witch that is equal to a Christian priest in the United States. People were confused why Atheist would want to be recognized as fully ordained priestess and priest clergy in a legal sense but Atheist did not do it to mock God, they did it so they can obtain a 501c tax exempt status so they can use their resources to help Atheist have a place to turn to for help. This service was sorely needed for Atheist so they can have a safe place to get food, shelter for the night, assistance with weddings, funerals, or help during a disaster just like Christian churches do for their community. This was the goal for Atheist clergy to provide help and counseling for their community so Atheist can go to a non judgemental place if they need assistance or if they are down on their luck during tough times in their life. Even though these Atheist priestess and priests catered to Atheist in general they would not turn away anyone in need even if they had a religious affiliation and needed help. People asked me why don't Atheist just go to church for help if they need assistance and my reply is why don't Christians go to an Atheist priestess/preacher organization if they need help? Do you see why this service is needed for Atheist? It's nice to go to a place you can trust without worrying if the church is going to unfairly influence you if you are struggling in life.
So I am a Christian-Wiccan-Shaman-Witch that is Atheist friendly and I'm going to love you no matter what Faith you choose or refrain from. My way of thinking is so radically different I am seen as a real threat to Christian extremist so they have to invalidate me to hold their power over their congregation which is sad. I can't prove I talk to spirits, but I believe I can and I have to know myself 100% of the time when I deal with supernatural forces or all is lost! The supernatural occult world is very overwhelming and confusing to be in and if you lose focus on yourself and what you stand for you can be forever lost in mind if you are fortunate or unfortunate enough to return back to Earth. Christian extremist trying to cast doubts of myself, invalidating me saying I can't be the strange, weird and loveable person I am can cause me harm or the person or people I I'm trying to help out too. I can't risk that for the people I am responsible for and blessed to have in my life.
I guess the final question you had was why wait for October 31st to leave indefinitely and not leave immediately? Well, as a freak of Nature ha-ha, that is not the person I am. I'm very spiritual and religious person, which means there are personal rules I must follow as I live my life. As a high priestess witch, I must have patience, and give people I love the time to accept I have to leave them before I have to go. That is the way with it is with death, and death follows me wherever I go! To get a glimpse of my life just get a glimpse of the sunset as it dies everyday for the billions of years before and the billions of years to come.
It is a very beautiful symbolic death I face every day of my life whenever I see the parting sun leave our Earth for the day with the promise of being reborn the following morning. Death is not the end it is just a transitional phase of life for me and during the sun's death I get to be a child of the night to enjoy the spirits of the moment that plays with me in the night. Told you I was a freak of Nature Ha-ha!
The reason I chose October 31st of 2023 for my sad demise departure is that I am a very religious witch that honors the high Holy Sabbath day/night of Samhain that occurs every 31st day of October in my religion. Samhain (pronounced Sowen) is our New Year celebration in our Coven that is a perfect time to let the bad things die and leave behind so that we can begin anew in the New Year of our Holy celebration. Samhain is the night when the veils between the living and spiritual are at their thinnest and an excellent time to let things go that cause you harm. Hope that answered your questions my dear, love you!!!
So you say; but many of us have actually looked at the history of the early Christian Church and have come to completely different conclusions from you.
Except you accept what the 2nd century AD + Christians said as fact when we now know they are not.
I'm so sick of this lame argument. At no point did the movie Ghostbusters present itself as anything BUT fiction. Not so with the Bible. To continue to make this argument is to not be serious.
Then you do not understand the point that fiction can (and often does) use real places, so pointing out the Bible uses real places and people is the lame argument as it is useless as evidence, especially when the stories have people walking on water, turning water into wine, and raising people from the dead.
I'm referring to the genres of writing. The OT narrative books are historical narratives. Read them.
Some are historical, some, like Daniel are invented histories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
You'll see that they present as historical narratives. The Prophetical books are often first-person narratives, and include messages from God. The NT Gospels are historical.
Allegorical fiction all based on Mark's original allegorical fiction. Just like the other 40 gospels and Acts we know about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
The NT letters are letters from men that were referenced in the Gospels, and Acts.
Correct, that does not make the gospels and Acts true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
It's tired. It's not a reasonable argument. The producers, actors, etc of Ghostbusters would all say it was fiction.
It is reasonable. Fiction can contain real places and people, so using the argument they contain real places and people does not help confirming the stories. Therefore it is useless as evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Not sure anyone really made that claim. But it does help to refute the claims that it's all fiction, when we are able to validate some of the claims it makes. For instance, King Sargon II is mentioned in Isaiah. For many years, skeptics attacked the Bible, saying that Sargon II never existed. Until they found archaelogical evidence of him. Now, that argument is moot. Does his existence prove that Paul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus? No. But no one is making that claim.
The OT also claims Solomon built cities that were founded 200 years after his death. As usual, Christians have to ignore much of the evidence they do not like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Your resistance to believe in the claims of the Bible doesn't change the fact that the Bible was not written as fiction.
Your resistance to the fact that parts of the Bible are fictional does not change the fact that parts of it are.
The post was #9 in this thread. It was made in response to a post that claimed that archeological proof of a Biblical location's existence is proof that the Bible is true.
For east in finding a quoted post in context, the forum software includes a "Linkback" icon in quoted posts. If you click on the blue arrow just to the right of the quoted member's name, you can go back to the quoted post's original location and see what it quoted or read it in context. (That's why we try to coax people into using the quote functions correctly.)
All good to know. I've learned a new trick this morning! Thanks!
I think it was on the first page. If you click that little blue arrow next to the name I quoted it will take you to the post.
I'm referring to the genres of writing. The OT narrative books are historical narratives. Read them. You'll see that they present as historical narratives. The Prophetical books are often first-person narratives, and include messages from God. The NT Gospels are historical. The NT letters are letters from men that were referenced in the Gospels, and Acts.
It's tired. It's not a reasonable argument. The producers, actors, etc of Ghostbusters would all say it was fiction.
Not sure anyone really made that claim. But it does help to refute the claims that it's all fiction, when we are able to validate some of the claims it makes. For instance, King Sargon II is mentioned in Isaiah. For many years, skeptics attacked the Bible, saying that Sargon II never existed. Until they found archaelogical evidence of him. Now, that argument is moot. Does his existence prove that Paul encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus? No. But no one is making that claim.
Your resistance to believe in the claims of the Bible doesn't change the fact that the Bible was not written as fiction.
Thanks to you too...
"Genres of writing?" I recently read a book you might do well to read as well. It is about how historians have gone about recording history going back to the first ones.
"In this “witty, wise, and elegant” (The Spectator), book, Richard Cohen reveals how professional historians and other equally significant witnesses, such as the writers of the Bible, novelists, and political propagandists, influence what becomes the accepted record."
"Making History: The Storytellers Who Shaped the Past" by Richard Cohen
Just a bit more information and leaning for me that broadened my perspective about all this sort of thing, and an interesting read for those also interested in broadening their perspective about this sort of thing. I would be interested to hear back from you about what you learn from this book if you should happen to read it.
Meanwhile, I am also curious to know how much of the Bible you believe to be non-fiction vs fiction. Say percentage wise. Yes, I have read the Bible. Many different versions and intelligent critiques about the Bible. Going back to when I was being raised a good Catholic child. Part of the issue for me is that even if the portion I think most people consider fiction is less than what might be non-fiction, the fact there is so much fiction in the mix makes the primary storyline somewhat suspect at best. The incredible supernatural occurrences the Bible suggests we should believe happened doesn't help matters any.
The Book of Mormon was written in part as an allegedly historical account of a lost tribe of Israel and its descendants in North America. The LDS church has an apologist / pseudoscience "institute" trying to document / substantiate it as history. Yet I suspect you would not therefore regard that as evidence that this book DOES describe historic events.
We have a guy here who quotes the Urantia Book at every opportunity. Part IV of that book, "The Life and Teachings of Jesus", expands on the gospels with claimed historical accounts. It's written as history. Yet somehow I don't think you believe it remotely describes historical events.
So I'm sure you can now understand why that the Bible "presents as history" is not impressive to many of us. I could write an account of any old thing, claim it is historical accurate, and that doesn't make it history.
I often point to the story of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon when it comes to this very real dynamic. All about that story including the testimonials and all the Mormon devout believers who provide a more modern day example of how the same sort of thing can pass as "historical truth" for so many people. Even today. Not for all the many non-Mormons of course but Mormonism is another great example of how this dynamic can all prove quite possible for so many even today. Just imagine or consider how that's all possible and then think about all the other stories that were similarly passed down by word of mouth and then put to paper going back thousands of years ago. Back when most people couldn't even read!
Anyone who doesn't understand how all this sort of thing can come to pass over and over again, over the course of thousands of years and still up until today, either really doesn't know or doesn't want to know, but we've all got very good reason to be very skeptical about those who claim something is true because "it is written." With or without historical facts and truths. Far more skeptical than the typical religious person seems to be inclined. That's what faith does for you. Or to you.
Last edited by LearnMe; 09-22-2023 at 09:33 AM..
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