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Right. Or maybe just leave a note with some sort of indication it could have only been penned by an all-knowing being. For example a list of all games to be played during the coming NFL season with all the winners and losers of every game correctly named. That would make me a believer in some sort of supernatural being. Make me rich too...
No such thing for me so far however. Not sure why others like Joseph Smith were not only visited by God and/or angels but also left with golden tablets! If only the rest of us could have a look at those tablets and do some testing. That would help to make us all believers too, but no. Just too bad Smith returned those plates to the angel Moroni never to be seen again.
Maybe next time a bit more care will be put into keeping the evidence available for all to see and again, we'll all become believers just like that!
It was interesting to me that one day in my school's front office 3 or 4 of us were just chatting during some down time. We weren't talking abour religion at all. And suddenly, out of the blue, my secretary said (I guess because I was from Palmyra, NY...the birthplace of Mormonism) "If there were Golden Plates, why can't the Mormons show them to us?" I replied, "Well, Sarah, if there were tablets with the Ten Commandments, why can't christians show them to us?" "Well that's different". Yeah, it's always different when the shoe is on the other foot.
It was interesting to me that one day in my school's front office 3 or 4 of us were just chatting during some down time. We weren't talking abour religion at all. And suddenly, out of the blue, my secretary said (I guess because I was from Palmyra, NY...the birthplace of Mormonism) "If there were Golden Plates, why can't the Mormons show them to us?" I replied, "Well, Sarah, if there were tablets with the Ten Commandments, why can't christians show them to us?" "Well that's different". Yeah, it's always different when the shoe is on the other foot.
P.S. I am not Mormon.
I mean if it comes to that, why can't God just communicate to everyone directly? Why scribing phrases onto stone and metal plates through a go between? Funny that. You'd almost think it was all made up.
I take issue with both your characterization of faith as defying reason and logic, and that it is based in emotion.
I agree with this completely.
Fair enough, but rather than take issue, what have you got?
I am most certainly always interested to learn what reason and logic justifies a belief in a god. So far no one has ever been able to provide any that seems other than ultimately a function of feelings and emotions. Problem here too, not only having to do with different perspectives, is a very different opinion about what is proper criteria and justification to believe something is true. What is fact-based reason and logic and what is something else entirely.
No doubt you have your reason(s) and logic, but whether I would agree your reason(s) and logic are solid justification to believe a god exists, nothing personal, but I doubt you can do any better than everyone else who has tried to do the same thing.
Again, ultimately, if there really were any sound reason and logic to justify such a belief, we'd all be believers, and you would need not have to bother explaining yours...
Right. Or maybe just leave a note with some sort of indication it could have only been penned by an all-knowing being. For example a list of all games to be played during the coming NFL season with all the winners and losers of every game correctly named. That would make me a believer in some sort of supernatural being. Make me rich too...
No such thing for me so far however. Not sure why others like Joseph Smith were not only visited by God and/or angels but also left with golden tablets! If only the rest of us could have a look at those tablets and do some testing. That would help to make us all believers too, but no. Just too bad Smith returned those plates to the angel Moroni never to be seen again.
Maybe next time a bit more care will be put into keeping the evidence available for all to see and again, we'll all become believers just like that!
We all have mobile phones today. You could just scan all the pages.
I mean if it comes to that, why can't God just communicate to everyone directly? Why scribing phrases onto stone and metal plates through a go between? Funny that. You'd almost think it was all made up.
Almost...
Maybe God is a romantic, or a tease, or having a bit of fun!
What fun is a mystery novel if there really isn't any mystery?
Or is it us humans that are the romantics, teasers, fun lovers and fans of mystery?
Do you believe the disciples of Jesus were real people? If so, what evidence convinces you that they were real people?
Yes. Of course they were. Some of them wrote the Gospels.
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Who wrote the bible?
Various people. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the books named after them. Luke also wrote Acts. Paul wrote a bunch of letters to the churches.
Tradition tells us Moses wrote the first 5 books of the OT, but obviously he couldn't have recorded the events of his own death, so someone else finished that. And various prophets, or their scribes wrote the other OT books. King Nebuchadezzar of Babylon actually wrote a chapter of Daniel.
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Why us? Our universe is constantly expanding and we have no idea what is out there. High probability that we are not the only "beings" that exist in the universe. Why did God choose Earth for Jesus to live on? Do you believe God came down as a human being on other planets as well?
We don't know what the probability is of other life in the universe is. In any event, it was God that created it, if it exists. He created this planet, and human beings because he chose to, in order to glorify himself. He's God, and he deserves it.
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What convinces you that there is an afterlife aside from what the bible says?
It's enough.
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What if you're wrong about God?
Then I'm wrong.
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If you are part of a denomination, what convinced you to choose that denomination and not others?
I've been a part of a number of different churches in a number of different denominations. The key point to consider was if the church I was a part of was loyal to what the Bible teaches.
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What convinces you that Christianity is the "right" religion and not other religions?
Because it is.
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Do you believe that God is responsible for everything? eg: if you are approved for a house, you should show grace and be thankful to God.
I mean if it comes to that, why can't God just communicate to everyone directly? Why scribing phrases onto stone and metal plates through a go between? Funny that. You'd almost think it was all made up.
My question is if god wants us to be... or considers it wrong to do... (what ever fill in the blank) why are we able to go against it's wishes or decrees? We are able because it either doesn't exist or didn't make those rules, humans did.
You don't like my definition? What's your objection?
Because it is your vague definition, not one that decribes what morality is.
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
He could indeed obey; but I ask again, what is Adam's obedience worth if disobedience is literally not possible because of the tree's inaccessibility?
Because according to Genesis, Adam was not put here to practice 'heroic virtue'. That is just your ad hoc excuse to explain away why a god would do something knowing it would cause the fall of man.
Fair enough, but rather than take issue, what have you got?
I am most certainly always interested to learn what reason and logic justifies a belief in a god. So far no one has ever been able to provide any that seems other than ultimately a function of feelings and emotions. Problem here too, not only having to do with different perspectives, is a very different opinion about what is proper criteria and justification to believe something is true. What is fact-based reason and logic and what is something else entirely.
No doubt you have your reason(s) and logic, but whether I would agree your reason(s) and logic are solid justification to believe a god exists, nothing personal, but I doubt you can do any better than everyone else who has tried to do the same thing.
Again, ultimately, if there really were any sound reason and logic to justify such a belief, we'd all be believers, and you would need not have to bother explaining yours...
The existence of the universe and our ability to intellectually perceive it is the evidence that an intelligent Creator or "first mover" exists. There is no other explanation that is reasonable or logical. I realize that you disagree.
In principle, do you believe that a person should be lavished with rewards and accolades for simply doing what is expected of normal human beings; such as breathing, going to work, not committing crimes, etc?
Do you think people should be punished for all eternity for simply not believing in gods? Not what you think your god wants, what do you believe?
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