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Want or not, appreciate or not, this body-mind existence gets old, decays, and comes to an end. Like everything else we see. No matter how much desire we have to do the most, there is 0 certainty that we will achieve it all. Only death is certain.
It is not eternal life on earth that we seek, what we all seek is happiness. Every living thing seeks happiness. Seeking that happiness from the world, which itself is changing all the time, is futile. The happiness we seek is within.
Not sure what any of this has to do with what I wrote.
The question you asked was
Quote:
How do you live for this life, the only one you know, any other way than to just live?
My point is, if you think you have eternity to live out your life or afterlives, where's the hurry to achieve anything? You've got forever.
If you believe as I do that this is it, this is the only life you get, there's an incentive to live your best life here and now.
If I die tomorrow, so be it. That's not the point. I'll have done my best with the time I had.
Also I have no idea what you mean by 'seeking happiness is futile'. Of course it isn't. Try telling that to people trying to escape from war zones. Of course happiness comes from within but you'll have an easier time finding your inner happiness if you are in a better environmental position to achieve that.
Not sure what any of this has to do with what I wrote.
The question you asked was
My point is, if you think you have eternity to live out your life or afterlives, where's the hurry to achieve anything? You've got forever.
If you believe as I do that this is it, this is the only life you get, there's an incentive to live your best life here and now.
If I die tomorrow, so be it. That's not the point. I'll have done my best with the time I had.
Also I have no idea what you mean by 'seeking happiness is futile'. Of course it isn't. Try telling that to people trying to escape from war zones. Of course happiness comes from within but you'll have an easier time finding your inner happiness if you are in a better environmental position to achieve that.
Is that your experience? That those who believe in an after-life, i am sure you know at last a few because there more who have this notion than not, do not strive, do not achieve anything?
Do you think those who have achieved great things believe as you do? How would you know?
My point is such a belief does not hinder anybody.
We live our lives as best as we can, given all the limitations, and then we die. How do we measure if we did our best? What is the best?
I said seeking happiness from the world is futile. Even people who trying to escape from war zones have moments of happiness, may be the food aid arrived, they didnt die that day. Our environment, however great and grand, can still not give us complete happiness. Look at those who were once high and mighty, now caught facing jail time for rape and fraud?
My point is happiness is not dependent on things, material or not, anything we think we possess. Because what we have today can go in a flash. Memory can go. Heart can stop. Stock market collapse etc, etc.
Happiness is our nature, it is not derived from anything outside of us.
Is that your experience? That those who believe in an after-life, i am sure you know at last a few because there more who have this notion than not, do not strive, do not achieve anything?
Do you think those who have achieved great things believe as you do? How would you know?
My point is such a belief does not hinder anybody.
We live our lives as best as we can, given all the limitations, and then we die. How do we measure if we did our best? What is the best?
I really don't think you are seeing my point.
You asked what I think from my perspective. I think my time is limited and when I die, in all likelihood, that's it. My time is up. At least that's the premise I have been working with. I believe my time here is precious, limited, no eternity. That obviously is a different perspective that someone who thinks they have an eternal life in front of them. Whatever they choose to do with this life is up to them. But they do have a different perspective than mine.
Quote:
I said seeking happiness from the world is futile. Even people who trying to escape from war zones have moments of happiness, may be the food aid arrived, they didnt die that day. Our environment, however great and grand, can still not give us complete happiness. Look at those who were once high and mighty, now caught facing jail time for rape and fraud?
My point is happiness is not dependent on things, material or not, anything we think we possess. Because what we have today can go in a flash. Memory can go. Heart can stop. Stock market collapse etc, etc.
Happiness is our nature, it is not derived from anything outside of us.
Moments of happiness is not the same as being happy. We all have moments of happiness.
Some people are happy with their lot whatever is thrown at them that's true.
And I agree material things don't necessarily bring happiness. Happiness is different things to different people though. And I'm sorry but environment absolutely does play a role. You can have the potential to be the happiest person in the world but that's going to be considerably marred if you are in an abusive relationship or stuck in a war zone. Why do you think there's so much suicide?
Yeah you absolutely can seek happiness from the world.
Let's hear the wisdom of a man who lived life to the fullest.....
“Vanity of vanities,†says the Preacher, “all is vanity!â€.......
The teacher here got everything his heart desired for in this life, and he concluded the purpose of man is to fear God, and keep His commandments. Jesus, the ultimate Teacher, came and said this.......
"For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.......
Of course I speak according to the wisdom Jesus gave us. We all agree this life is temporary. It doesn't make sense to say something like "Don't waste this life" if this life is all we have. At the end of the day if this life is the only one, then all works, whether good or bad, will all have the same lasting results. Its all in vain. Yet if we live for something that will last for eternity, then this life is not a waste. The works we do, will last forever.
This is interesting because again according to the wisdom of Jesus, who preached the arrival of the Kingdom of God/Heaven, He saw those who were down trodden, as having it made!!! This is during His sermon on the mount and the Beatitudes. He said blessed/happy are those who are poor in spirit. Happy are those who are humble and those who weep. Happy are those who are persecuted for His name sake. For these are the ones who will see the Kingdom of Heaven.
So if this life has you beat down to the ground, you're homeless, you're starving, death is all around you, Jesus said these folks got it made. Why? Of course as stated, its these folks who are most likely to inherit what God has in store, both in this life and certainly in the next. (Which the world can't see and of course doubt exists)
Now for those who love this life, the opposite is for them. Jesus said woe to those who are well fed now. Woe to those who laugh now. Woe to the rich. Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you. Its these folks who have embraced this life now. In the next one, you will weep and mourn, you will starve and suffer. We are putting all our eggs in this basket, when we absolutely know the basket will be destroyed in the end and everything in it is lost. We keep saying, "we don't know if there is life after death. We don't know...", well, what do we know? We know this life is coming to an end. So why invest in something that is coming to an end? According to the wisdom of Jesus, I invest in what will last forever. So I choose to trust His wisdom.
As far as the happiness discussion above, it doesn't need to be connected with anything other than ourselves. In any moment - no matter what is going on - we should be able to appreciative of life (a free gift) at a minimum, and likely many other factors (perhaps good health or at least not horribly maimed), keeping fed, etc. It should be an easy mental ability, but we tend to avoid it or under-develop it. It is a personal responsibility, because only we can do that, and we shouldn't be dragging others down if we're neglectful of taking care of ourselves.
If you look around, you'll see that happiness is not our nature (contrary to above), although it should be. It is outwardly less obvious and visible over time among the masses, but it certainly is available to all.
As far as the happiness discussion above, it doesn't need to be connected with anything other than ourselves. In any moment - no matter what is going on - we should be able to appreciative of life (a free gift) at a minimum, and likely many other factors (perhaps good health or at least not horribly maimed), keeping fed, etc. It should be an easy mental ability, but we tend to avoid it or under-develop it. It is a personal responsibility, because only we can do that, and we shouldn't be dragging others down if we're neglectful of taking care of ourselves.
If you look around, you'll see that happiness is not our nature (contrary to above), although it should be. It is outwardly less obvious and visible over time among the masses, but it certainly is available to all.
Nice post, well said.
The fact that happiness IS our nature is blanked out because we have mistaken ideas, wrong impression, unknowingness, that has convinced us that happiness is only to be derived from the world and its content. Until we are able to realize or understand our mistake, mistake that harms us and deprives us of the gift of contentment and peace that exists within, we will always suffer the world. And sadly also make the world suffer.
As far as the happiness discussion above, it doesn't need to be connected with anything other than ourselves. In any moment - no matter what is going on - we should be able to appreciative of life (a free gift) at a minimum, and likely many other factors (perhaps good health or at least not horribly maimed), keeping fed, etc. It should be an easy mental ability, but we tend to avoid it or under-develop it. It is a personal responsibility, because only we can do that, and we shouldn't be dragging others down if we're neglectful of taking care of ourselves.
If you look around, you'll see that happiness is not our nature (contrary to above), although it should be. It is outwardly less obvious and visible over time among the masses, but it certainly is available to all.
Sorry but this is idealized and unrealistic.
Nobody is saying happiness has to be connected with anything.
But to me it's unempathetic to wave aside people dealing with and living in less fortunate circumstances and say it should be an easy mental ability for everyone to just be able to conjure up happiness.
It's not putting yourself in others shoes.
Some people are not grateful to just be alive. Some people live a miserable existence. No it isn't available to all.
In any case I have no idea what this conversation about happiness has got to do with the thread.
...I have no idea what this conversation about happiness has got to do with the thread.
The second half of your post above (#33) was about the same subject, so you might want to drop the lame hypocrisy that it makes sense when you discuss it, but not others.
Our death is probably the end of this whole sensation of our conscious experience. I can think of a million reasons why it would be really weird and ridiculous and just make no sense if it wasn't. Religion's whole suggestion that it isn't, has never made any sense to me, just at any level. Like, really? In 400 billion years of post-death eternity of my never-ending continued existence of this often ridiculous experience of conscious self, I'm still going to potentially remember awkward moments and bad memories from the 7th grade? But, I still of course wouldn't have any memory of the decade before I was born, or of my parents' childhood, or any idea of what it was to be a similar but different person who lived a few miles away and went to a different middle school? Also, how could I ever make the ride end? Eventually we'd want it to.
"I" (the ultimately illusory sense of being a persistent "self" that I possess every day, at least especially while in my normal/default state of consciousness), didn't exist before I was born, and likely won't exist after I die. IMO it's a near 100% likelihood that our death is the end. Not painful or anything, but just the end of it all.
That said, I think the self/consciousness, and of course the biological body we live in, are the only things that die at our death. Which the discovered laws of science confirm: that matter is not created or destroyed. I don't know what that might mean "spiritually" (such a very co-opted word and loaded term to the max). If the truth of all spirituality is that it was all just discovering a 5th dimension or something like that, and we're all part of some blissful one-ness total shared existence that's totally different than one person's individual conscious experience, I don't know, but, maybe. That would be cool.
Though in order to say this I realize I still have to cling on to this conscious experience that I have as "I", "I" would love to be able to know everything and see everything. I'd want to see the dinosaurs millions of years ago, and everything else that was unknown mystery while I was still a living participant in the game.
And all souls merging together in the ultimate expression of full love, understanding and forgiveness- that would be very cool, also. That's the only part of the Heaven concept that I like- the unity with everyone.
But, yes, we should all live our very mortal, physical, fragile, very temporal lives to the fullest, with the assumption that that's the only experience that there is. Hedge our bets that way, in Reverse-Pascal style.
If there's anything that continues after that point, it wouldn't be like any religion or mystic or anyone has ever claimed to known. Because no one actually knows, as there's no way of knowing.
I have a very strong belief though that *if* there's anything after we die, it wouldn't be anything about any "punishment" or "reward". If there is anything more than nothing to it, in my view there's no logical or rational reason to think that it could ever be anything painful or negative. (Especially if it never ends.)
The universe will eventually end, too, I think. Or in some capacity, and at least this universe. Whether that's the cold death/big freeze, or whatever. So even if we do feel that one-ness and great spiritual plane of unity of all electrons, or the 5th dimension that you have to consume psychedelic drugs to get to, or whatever you want to imagine, even that I think would eventually fade to black. And that's probably a good thing- experience, even the best version of it, doesn't make sense IMO to be infinite.
In fact we already know that experience is not infinite, because we did not exist before our parents met.
Imagine the agony of the eternal soul that was desperate to commit suicide but couldn't. There would be no form of torture greater than that.
Really, there are plenty of people who have experienced a reality outside their body. It could be an out-of-body experience (I have had 2) or it could be a near-death experience. Many people can do the out-of-body thing on demand too. (Monroe Institute)
There must be millions of people who have had these experiences across history, so if anyone needs to believe there is some other existence after we die, they only have to look to these reports. However, they are generally not enough to convince folk who have not been involved personally irrespective of how similar the reports are across cultures and religions.
The OP could visit a Spiritualist church and find out whether a service experience provided enough 'proof' of existence after death. I was a Spiritualist for 15 years and it certainly makes you think and decide what you believe, The mediums who take the service try to give 'proof' by giving messages from loved ones who have moved on to other realities. The mediums themselves believe they are 'talking' in their heads to loved ones but if you believe all they are doing is giving cold readings and picking up on clues then it wont help much in arriving at a belief of the afterlife. Talking to these people as I often have, they are sincere in their beliefs that they are communicating with spirits and the spirits appear to be intelligent.
However, there are also paranormal events too which suggest that there are some intelligent energies out there. What of them? Do they suggest an afterlife possibility? if not, then where do the entities come from?
I think we have to look at the non-religious circumstancial evidence which is more than many orthodox religions will acknowledge, or if they do, they frame it in the context of their own beliefs.
I've had an out-of-body experience. I was an atheist before that experience, and I remained an atheist afterwards. Such experiences are fascinating, but they prove nothing about the existence of supernatural beings
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