Existence, non existence, paradise, hell, and the free will question (Revelation, Muslims)

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by Travelling fella

Some saints and sages have such a developed willpower that they can live without food or sleep, so it is possible, but you need to develop your willpower first.

There probably are monks who could meditate themselves into a state of happiness, but is that not the same as using drugs to become high?
Where the meditation becomes a drug?
So even if happiness is a case of willpower, would it solve anything?
A cage is still a cage, even when it is made out of pure gold.

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by Travelling fellaThere probably are monks who could meditate themselves into a state of happiness, but is that not the same as using drugs to become high?
Where the meditation becomes a drug?
So even if happiness is a case of willpower, would it solve anything?
A cage is still a cage, even when it is made out of pure gold.

it depends on your objectives of life I guess.

for people who meditate, they are seeking union with spirit, and one of the qualities of spirit is eternal bliss, they perceive material things as the cage, and the body as the prison of the soul, things that enslave our lifes and that will be forsaken at the end of them.

[mahmoud mrt]

Another reply in another thread that has additional info and summarization regarding my understanding of heaven and hell.

Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt

If you have time you can read the first two posts here, it's related to your questions:

Existence, non existence, paradise, hell, and the free will question

I can add a summarization and additional info here,
Note that this is my personal understanding after reading and thinking, hope you find what you seek.

How the person is created is decided by God after looking in this person's reality in the non existence, and so God creates him in best circumstances to reveal the person's true self.

Any suffering to the person cleans out his heart, reminds him that he needs God, and makes him nearer to God so as to have a good rank in the hereafter.

Any person with one atom of good in his heart will not be eternal in hell, he will eventually enter paradise in the rank he deserves. (Note that one atom of good always refer to one atom of belief in God the one the only one, cause this is a human nature).

Hell and paradise are places for ranking, there are many degrees in hell and paradise.

For many persons being non moslim is better than being moslim. Let me clarify this more, Why satan was condemned by God and deserved hell, Did he not believe in God, No, he do believe in God, But he defied Him openly when God ordered him to prostrate to Adam. So for many persons if he is a moslim he will defy God with major sins and his heart will harden more and be further away from God, so being a non moslim and has no knowledge of Islam gives him a good excuse in the hereafter.

As for humans who have no single atom of good in their heart, i personally do not think that their torture will be for eternity, i understand that after punishment for their sins, they'll stay in hell in a low rank of living, they can do crimes to each other there, but they will not be close to God, they chose, it's their choice not to have a single atom of good in their hearts.

As for why in all communities and religions some make crimes in the name of religion, cause criminals tend to stupidly justify their crimes with stupid interpretations and making lies over their religion, it's a criminal nature that is in some persons in all communities, religions, including atheism, you can compare crimes rates in all countries especially in the west to know clearly that religion is innocent from criminal's acts.


Peace

Peace

[Jack08]

Existance and non-existance see ecclesiastes 9 vs 5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten

Is there a Hell where we are punished after death - see romans 6 vs 7

For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

seems not then.

[mahmoud mrt]

Originally Posted by Phemela

You did not reply as intellegibly as I hoped you would; nevertheless I respect your points. I also respect you as a person with the individual "choice". From your response I liked most that you are passionate about your culture and religion. What I liked least was your attempt to affiliate science with religion, especially the religion you so passionately feel about. This is my opinion thus, that intellect (assuming it is science) and passion (assuming it is the will entagged in your religion) can never go together.

You passionately said that "religion is a human need that God created us with; God is in every human heart...", this should answer why I said Religion is useless, because I also said it is useful... but as a tradition, culture and practice (something we should passionately feel and be proud about, like you being proud of your religion). Religion is useless when it claims to know the truth out there; because if it knew the truth, then why would it try so hard to convince people that it is the truth. The will of God (Islam, Jew, Christian, etc) is true in itself, it does not need to be proven by "Moslim scholars and thinkers"- you don't need interpreters or the quaran, or the bible for that matter to know the place God want to put you, do you? In this way the interpreters, scholars, thinkers et al. become mere scientists who act only on necessity rather than "Truth". A man who knows the truth have no need or proving it... you see how I think your point of mixing your passion for Islam with science is dangerous? You don't need to be the spokesperson of your God; if he is true, He will speak for you in ways that He knows. If God loves you, that should not be your business. You business is to live your life in the best way possible you know... and that is in Islam culture. All you need is to be a Muslim and practice the culture of Islam, in this way God becomes the matter of your heart, not the matter of whether he is true or not. i would have argued further on "whether GOD exist or not" but I see such arguments are more useless...

Now lets speak about freewill. I said no will is free. You insist the will is free and that God provided this will. Very well. But you have not really explained how free is the will. I said the will is bound to your needs. What you did was agree with me with the difference that you typologised the concept "needs". In you meaning the will operates between choosing way to meet the need. Here you presume there is the will in the way you choose to meet the need i.e. satisfying you sex need by raping or getting married. But did you know that choosing not to satisfy your need (sex through rape or marriage) is still the work of the will? So by connating the name choice you think you already have the will. But I tell you, that before the freewill (choice) there is something greater i.e. the "will (need) to power". This concept validates the fact that the will is foever bound to your needs, and your needs are greater than what you think you need. Mere choice is but a single aspect of the umbrella name power.

Thanx.

You're a respectable debater, Thanks for this.

I speak for exchanging knowledge, I know that God can speak for himself to every human heart.

What i'm posting is due to the desire for exchanging knowledge that's all, and it's the will of God to guide the person to truth which i believe is Islam, while others believe it's in their religion, good.

Your view is very complicated.

I rather like the simple approach.

What do mean by power, please illustrate this, i know that my post is after four months, due to personal circumstances.

But i hope you read this post and reply

Anyway we agree to disagree with respect, this is good for me, hope all members are like this.

Peace

[mahmoud mrt]

Originally Posted by Terryj

Free will, an interesting topic, free will implies that you can do something will out "cause and effect" if cause and effect come into play then there is nothing "free" about it. We all have "free choice" which is different than free will. If free will does exist, then why doesn't a person just "will" themselves from suffering, starvation or any thing that causes discomfort. Then also why is there "unhappy" people, why can't they just "will" themselves to be happy. This is the difference between "free will" and "free choice".

Good point.

i illustated the differnce without naming it.

Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt

Another example:

''To God is the highest example, there's nothing compared to God"


A school teacher who is a good teacher, doesn't he know every student in his class, and can predict clearly who will study and succeed, and who will fail, very simple, does this mean that he made that student study and succeed, and made the other ignore and fail, no of course not, he only gave his knowledge to the students and every one of them has all free will to do the right or wrong.

Compare that to God, doesn't He know every one of us, He is the Creator of us, the Creator of all things, so of course although He gave us all free will to do right or wrong, He knows exactly what we will do, He is the Knower, the Seer.

*******************

A following question:

Then why someone who wishes to be rich isn't so, his wish is to be rich? or he is ill and wishes to be healthy.

This is because God wants this person to reveal his true identity and heart, and so he makes the process of "Fetna"

Fetna is when you put gold in fire so dirt and unwanted solids gets out of it and leaves it pure gold. It's a heart purification process.

Also Hell in a arabic is a place for ''Fetna'' for many persons.
In the holy Qur'an a part of a verse meaning ''when they are being ''yoftanon'' in fire''.

*******************

So lets say a person has good in his heart, but this good will not be revealed and he will never come near God except when he is ill or poor, If he is rich he will fall in sins and crimes, So God by His mercy make to him this "fetna" to reveal the gold of his heart.

So when i see a rich good hearted man who is worshipping God, doing good deeds, i respect him very much, cause this man God knew he doesn't need a hard "fetna" to reveal the good of his heart, He trusted him with this money cause he knew he will do good with it.

Lets say another person who is rich and a criminal, he doesn't worship God or do good deeds, Why did God give him this money and health?

Cause God knew that this person is an evil one, he will not worship God or purify his heart even if he is ill or poor, So God gave him this money and health to enjoy it in this life, and leaves his punishment to the hereafter.

*******************

Thanks

Peace

[ShepsMom]

I personally don't believe that "free will" exists at all. How we "choose" or "will" what or how we do what we do, is based on everything you have done or "willed" before. Also, in order to "will" or "choose" certain deed, you must look at the final consequences and outcome of your choosing.
That puts very same limitations to "free", doesn't it? Yes, you base your wills or choices on your moral principals, but when you chose to do one thing over the other, how do you determine that the choice you've made is the one you should have made. Then comes "i could have done it the other way", that puts burden on a "will" So why do we do what we thought would be the "right" vs. what we could have done? That is a battle of your conscious that determines outcome of your actions. Your "will' to chose one over the other based on your judgment, the possibilities of outcome and if that outcome is what you are "willing" to achieve.
In any case, your will becomes a choice to chose what you're willing to chose.

I'm getting confused now.

[mahmoud mrt]

I posted another reply in an other thread that is important regarding my understanding of heaven and hell

I saw it's important to add it here:

Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt

My personal view after reading in Islam is that eternal torture is not there.

Eternal hell is there but eternal torture is not.

So if i'm in paradise and i know a relative of me is in hell, I know that he is being punished fairly for his sins in order to deserve paradise, so i'll meet him eventually

If he has not atom of good then paradise to him will be hell, he can't live in paradise cause he'll hate it, he can't be thankful towards God a single second, so paradise is worse than hell to them.

So i understand that after punishment for his sins, he'll stay in hell in a low rank of living, they can do crimes to each other there.

That's why we can understand the verse telling that persons in paradise will laugh on persons who are in hell for eternity, cause those in hell are not in torture any more, after being punished for their sins even after a very long punishment, they live as they chose, doing crimes every day. This is laughable of course.

This has no other meaning than they are not punished, cause persons do not laugh on someone who is suffering, and God is the most merciful as mentioned in the holy Qur'an many times and before each chapter.

Peace

[mahmoud mrt]

If you allow me I will post here the textual proofs of my understanding of heaven and hell.

First i summarize my understanding:

1) Heaven is the place of joy and living well with your family, persons entering heaven are two categories:

A) Who are pure hearted and did enough good deeds to enter heaven directly.

B) Who will enter hell first to be purified from their sins for a range of short time to very long time depending on the sins they made, not knowing when they'll get out.


2) Hell is a place for "Fetna", it is when you put gold in fire so dirt and unwanted solids gets out of it and leaves it pure gold. It's a heart purification process, for most persons. So torture in hell is not eternal.


3) Eternal hell is for human devils, who have no single atom of good in their heart. They can't stand to be thankful towards God a singe second, so heaven to them is worse than hell.

They will be punished for their sins for a very long time in hell, not knowing when the torture will end, then their torture will be over, but they’ll still be in hell for eternity doing crimes to each other, living the life they choose and deserve, there will not be joy for them.

They'll stay in hell, not in torture, but not in joy either.


4) Heaven and hell are places for ranking, there are many degrees in heaven and hell.

God leaves all options for Himself alone, and tells us He's merciful and forgiving, we try to understand after reading and thinking carefully.


In the next post we get to textual proofs form the Holy Qur'an and the prophet's (pbuh) traditions.

[mahmoud mrt]

This is for any moslem or non moslem who wants to see and analyze these proofs, Sorry for it's long, but every point is simple and easy to understand.

Thanks for reading.

1) Holy Qur'an Chapter 4

40 - God is never unjust in the least degree (methqal tharra: the wait of an atom): if there is any good (done), he doubleth it, and giveth from his own presence a great reward.


2) The known right tradition the means that anyone with one atom of belief in God the one the only one, will not be eternal in hell.

Note that this atom means an atom of good, it's a human nature, that any atom of good always refer to belief in God, even if the person neglect this fact.

No one can know the heart of a person a second before he dies, this atom of good will save him.


3) Here is a language analysis:

The Arabic word (Khaledon), this word means being a long time, long time in hell for example, it does not mean eternity, while long time can be eternity, it does not necessary mean eternity. (This is a very known word meaning fact in the Arabic language),

You'll find that some translators used the word "for ever", this is actually taking the easy way around, taking the feeling of the verse not the actual very accurate meaning of the Arabic word.

Eternity means in Arabic (ilaa alabad) (abada). Even "abada" from its meanings: "always", so it tends more to the meaning eternity, but it can be "always", not necessary eternity.

That’s why in the Egyptian courts when a sentence of prison "moabbad" it means 25 years not life time.

When we look in the holy Qur'an and see haw many times (Khledoon) was mentioned alone regarding hell, and even not mentioned at all, it is most of times, and how many times (abadaa). (app. only 3 times).

I can't find the word "abada" regarding hell except only app. three times.
3 out of many with no "abada" and many even without "khaledon".


4) Holy Qur'an chapter 98

6. Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (Khaledon). They are the worst of creatures.

7. Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.

8. Their reward is with Allah. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.


Here we see who do not believe from the people of the book (Christians and Jews) , and the Pagans, there punishment is only mentions the word "khaledon" which literally does not mean eternity.

While on Moslems who believe and do good deeds clearly said that they will enter paradise for eternity.

See the comparison.


5) Holy Qur'an chapter 83

34. But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers:


Now we can understand the verse telling that persons in paradise will laugh on persons who are in hell for eternity, cause those in hell are not in torture any more, after being punished for their sins even after a very long punishment not knowing when the torture will end, they live as they chose, doing crimes every day. This is laughable of course.

This has no other meaning than they are not in torture any more, cause persons do not laugh on someone who is suffering.

Those in hell are not in torture any more, but they are not enjoying themselves either.

And God is the most merciful as mentioned in the holy Qur'an many times and before each chapter.


6) Holy Qur'an chapter 51

13. (It will be) a Day when they will be tried (and tested) over the Fire! (yoftanoon, from the word fetna: purification)


7) Holy Qur'an Chapter 4

93 - If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is hell, to abide therein (Khaledan) and the wrath and the curse of God are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.


This verse which is agreed to be applicable to moslims and non moslims and again it uses the word ''khaldan'' not the word ''abada''.

This verse was taken by a small group of Moslems who claimed that this proves that the Moslem killer will not enter paradise. And the scholars refuted this, by this very simple meaning of the word "Khaledoon", being a long time even if it's a very long time doesn't mean eternity at all.


8) Holy Qur'an chapter 7

40 - To those who reject our signs and treat them with arrogance (khzaboo beayatena wa estakbaro anha), no opining will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: such is our reward for those in sin. (wa khazalek nagzee almogremeen)


Let's see the words

Until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle.

The camel can eventually pass through the eye of the needle, when it dies and decomposes.

See.

This is my personal understanding.


In the next post we get to the few verses where (abada) is mentioned regarding hell and analyze them.