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V Now the karmic debts from tens of thousands of years have fallen due, and I dare you to argue me down on that.
I'm sorry I challenged your sense of reality. You are free to believe whatever works best for you. My beliefs should in no way threaten yours.
I don't feel the least bit theatened because your beliefs
don't make any sense. The only time I feel threatened is when someone actually makes a more intelligent argument than I have made (which is very rare). You've made some outrageous comments such as the status of the residents of Venus who you apparently know personally. If you would care to get into the details of this arrangement and be willing to share your knowledge with us simple earthiings I would love to know what you think.
Wasn't one point of Jesus' dying to also demonstrate to us that he could come back to life? So much of Jesus' reason for being a human being (he was a real actual man in human form) was to show us what we as human beings ourselves could experience through our relationship with our Creator?
Jesus basically said 'anything i can do you can do better' ("greater things than these ye shall do") and he had credibility to us because he did these things as a human being. If he was some disembodied voice in the sky we could simply shrug it off as 'yeah, right' but to have an actual human in our face doing the things he did and telling us we could have that same sort of relationship with god that he did, it got us to sit up and take notice and give what he said credibility
so the death set the stage for the resurrection, another example to us (along with the other miracles jesus showed us) of a tangible benefit of having a loving relationship with god
i don't buy the whole "died for our sins" part, to me that is theology that is layered on after the fact by a church structure with a specific political agenda of its own. Jesus came as an example to show us through relating to god how we could improve our own lives, our own health, and our own well-being. Jesus was a messenger of god's love. God wants us to LIVE for god, not die for god. My god is a god of love and joy, not a god of suffering and punishment and martyrdom.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-01-2008 at 01:47 PM..
The truth is...you really can't answer this question (without human, failable bias) by excluding the Bible. If you really want to understand it, you need to read it for yourself. I've been Catholic all my life--only within the past 6 months have I started to actually FEEL like I'm beginning to understand Christianity and what it means. And, honestly--it's ONLY because I started to read it for myself and have patience with it (re-reading one verse like a billion times instead of 10 pages at a time).
You can always just go by what other people say...but you'll always have questions then. You need to find it for yourself--and give yourself that kind of respect. Start with a list of questions--and seek the answers for yourself. Questioning is good.
What is unfortunate is that the mere fact that you're asking these questions (and they are GOOD questions...some of my own which I'm tryng to understand better), means that you're curious and not possibly satisfied with whatever idea of "the bigger picture" and its meaning in your life. Our world is so skeptic and "realistic" that it can really be a dagger to the soul rather than a source of protection.
Look into it, have patience--and consider asking God (even if you don't necessarily believe) for some help in understanding. I've had way more answers come through from my prayers that couldn't have possibly have been mere coincidence. That's why I feel that I know someone is listening--and I have faith that the Bible and what is in it must be of substance. So, I'm learning it.
It's awesome that you posted the question--I hope that you would be compelled to seek those answers more--rather than tear them down after a few skeptical and comfortable responses, because I can't imagine that there is life in that.
I also hope that this came off more as a concerned response instead of a judging response. --because that is how I mean it.
Jesus loves us all so much He was willing to die on that cross for our sins, .......
...but he didn't die did he. There was no "sacrifice" in what he allegedly did. Where is the sacrifice in "dying" when you know that you'll be back in three days....with added benefits?
If it could be that world poverty would be eradicated by my dying for three days, I would do it without question. It wouldn't be a "sacrifice" if I'm going to be back within three days.
I'm not a Christian so I'm going to approach this "died for our sins" concept from a different angle.
Consider that Jesus may have said something to the effect that "I am the way" as it says in the Bible. Is it possible that he SHOWED the way and had no interest in being worshiped or embraced as a literal bridge between God and Man? Looked at from this alternative perspective, "Died for our sins" can mean something like the following:
Nobody can escape suffering, ignorance and delusion as long as they are living from ego, desire, pride and self-interest. The death of the ego is the way. Jesus humbled himself as reported in many stories in the Gospels (especially in the Gnostic gospels which were censored by the Romans), and the ultimate act of humility and death of ego was to be nailed to a cross between a pair of common thieves, naked and berated by an angry mob.
He devoted his life to showing the way, the path toward liberation from Self. This is a kind of Buddhist interpretation. There is some evidence and speculation that during the mysterious decades of his life not discussed in the Bible, he traveled to other lands and learned from other cultures and traditions. Much of what he said and did reveals this possibility, that he embraced what he learned in places like Persia and India.
As for the Christian interpretation, they'e best able to make the case and I honor their beliefs.
God creates man with free will, tells him not to use it, punishes man when he does, then sends Himself to die to save man from the punishment He implemented on the free will He gave them, then resurrects Himself and calls it a sacrifice.
Ta-da!
God creates man with free will, tells him not to use it, punishes man when he does, then sends Himself to die to save man from the punishment He implemented on the free will He gave them, then resurrects Himself and calls it a sacrifice.
Ta-da!
Interesting and informative thread on many levels . . . thanks for resurrecting it Andrea. Your recap exposes much of the absurdity of primitive thinking embedded in the scriptural record of our quest to understand God and our purpose. It is a sad commentary on our species spiritual growth and development that much of it stagnated at that primitive level of understanding . . . "milk instead of solid food." It was not supposed to.
All scriptures embody collective attempts to summarize and record for future generations the existing level of understanding in the human consciousness related to our purpose. This process must be viewed as evolutionary . . . as is all of existence. We must try to understand each stage of our collective search for our purpose in its appropriate context and in all its manifestations. Myths and legends, for example, were the primary method of transmission and communication of such collective ideas in the earliest stages of human development. Under those circumstances, we must consider it all. It is impossible to know, a priori, what to leave out. This is why Sola Scriptura has been such a disastrous concept producing spiritual stagnation at primitive levels of understanding.
AS I have pointed out elsewhere, the spiritual childhood of a species is no less unique a period in time than the individual childhoods of its members. This is difficult to see, typically, but if you spend some time watching old silent movies it will become more obvious. Choose those movies that were supposed to be serious and dramatic, and actually were considered such by the earlier audiences. What is your reaction to them? The amount of time between us and those silent movie generations is minuscule in comparison with the amount of time that has elapsed since the earliest religious writings were recorded. You can easily imagine how much distortion these kinds of generational perceptual differences have caused in the existing interpretations of the childhood of humankind, especially in the interpretation of religious recordings.
Bottom line scarmig and Montana . . . my expanded recap devoid of scriptural citation would be:
God created an embryo living soul (seed of consciousness) in the "dust of the ground" (an evolved animal body) and needed to teach it to discriminate between good and bad responses to its animal drives (self-control) to enable the eventual maturation of its living soul to achieve rebirth as Spirit from the "dust" of the animal body upon its death. Obviously, its animal drives were stronger than its infant soul and we were unable on our own to accomplish our purpose (too "primitive and sinful") even with periodic "schooling" through the centuries. We have the capability but apparently lacked the understanding, motivation and faith in our abilities . . . though many came close. Without a member of our species capable of actually achieving the perfection of self-control as a mature consciousness in love . . . we would have been forever separated from achieving our purpose and joining God as mature adult Spirits.
Unfortunately, in our immaturity and ignorance we misinterpreted the desired trait . . . self-denial (sacrifice) of our animal drives whenever they would produce evil results. In our primitive fear of God, we assumed God wanted "sacrifices." Through selective breeding, encouragement and support of the more "self-controlled" of our species we eventually had a "crop" of humanity capable of achieving its purpose . . . out of whom Jesus was the first fruit. (There is long-standing speculation in legends that God would "stack the deck" for our Savior by reducing the "weaknesses of the father" through a virgin birth.) But whatever the reality . . . His consciousness attained the perfection of God's consciousness in love of all life and through perfect resonance became IDENTICAL with it . . . something we are capable of but without His special advantage unlikely to be able to duplicate easily in this life since "His burden was easier."
The tragedy is that during the primitive era in which He lived the outcome of His message and attempts to correct the primitive understanding about God had a predictable result. Both Jesus and God knew what that result would be BECAUSE OF our "primitive sinfulness" and allowed it to further demonstrate the error of our fear and misunderstanding of God. Jesus endured the scourging and barbaric treatment and died BECAUSE OF (for) our sins and "smote" no one. He exhibited the love we are supposed to emulate. His rebirth as Spirit (made more tangible by the illusion of a resurrected body to allay superstitious fears about evil spirits) also provided hope and removed the fear of death as an end of life.
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). You've made some outrageous comments such as the status of the residents of Venus who you apparently know personally. If you would care to get into the details of this arrangement and be willing to share your knowledge with us simple earthiings I would love to know what you think.
